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Today's Topics:
1. Is this a vaible motor? (Jeff Shanab)
2. Re: The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About (Lee Hart)
3. Re: The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About (was:
UltraCapacitors LaMoore) (Evan Tuer)
4. Re: newbee (Jeff Shanab)
5. Re: Ultimate EV Transmission (was: newbee) (Jeff Shanab)
6. OT, but I just couldn't avoid sharing it! (Steven Lough)
7. Re: The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About. More
BANG for yur buck! (Bob Rice)
8. Re: The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows
About(was:UltraCapacitors LaMoore) (Jeff Shanab)
9. Re: A123 power tools (Derek Barger)
10. battery amperage (R. Matt Milliron)
11. Re: Electric Car article in New York Times this Sunday!
(Michael T Kadie)
12. Re: battery amperage (JS)
13. Re: Re gen on DC ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
14. Re: battery amperage (David Roden)
15. Re: Is this a vaible motor? (Peter Gabrielsson)
16. Re: The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About (was:
UltraCapacitors LaMoore) (David Roden)
17. Re: Online NY Times article link there today (Rod Hower)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:20:41 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Is this a vaible motor?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
ebay 220174479206
I think it is too massive, but it is hard to tell from the info on the
page and I can't read that label.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:41:39 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
(-Phil-) wrote:
> ... What happened to Ni-Cd?!?
It's out of fashion :-)
Seriously, it has two strikes against it. First, nickel is expensive.
They want something that uses cheaper materials (or that at least
*seems* to be cheaper, by being unknown or not yet monopolized).
Second, cadmium is toxic. You shouldn't just throw old nicads in a
landfill (which is exactly what everyone did with them). Lead is just as
bad, but there are laws and recycling programs to deal with the problem
(something like 95% of lead gets recycled).
If we had the political willpower, we could have instituted the same
laws and recycling programs for nicads as for lead-acids, and made them
just as safe and reasonable to use. We chose not to.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:44:25 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About
(was: UltraCapacitors LaMoore)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Nov 24, 2007 11:38 AM, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A new pack of these is supposedly only made on special request "by hand".
> They are crazy expensive. If these batteries were cheaper, they would
> really make EV maintenance a no-brainer.
A lot of the cost is the Nickel in them. There's no getting around that.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:59:33 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] newbee
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Weight distribution plays into vehicle dynamics in these ways.
If the vehicle is tail heavy it "wants" to swap ends. You are coming up
to a stop and apply the brakes the weight transfer causes the back to
unload the back tires reducing traction. This makes it easy for this to
happen.
A slightly rear heavy vehicle can be a blast to drive the way it shoots
out of corners, but if you back off the throttle in an corner near the
limits of adhesion you are going backwards in a fraction of a second.
(bertone/Fiatx19,911tc)
A front heavy vehicle acks like a tomahawk and wants to keep going
forward. To light up front and the rear completely unloads and wild
fishing / unfishing results.
Slightly front heavy in a corner "pushes", tends to go straight even
though you are trying to turn.
Although the 50/50 weight distribution is theoretically ideal, things
are dynamic, weight shifts around and if the vehicle transitions thru
the neutral point during a "max G" corner, it can become unpredictable.
Since the rear heavy vehicle takes a conscious effort to control (ie
driver getting in trouble naturally backs off gas makeing loss of
control worse) Manufactures tend to make there cars front heavy or make
the alignment tend to push so that drivers backing off the gas regain
control. This trade off for safety reduces the maximum cornering the car
can obtain. General public getting use to this is one reason when
suddenly confronted with a performance vehicle get themselfs in trouble.
PU trucks are examples of vehicles that are often too light in back and
if pushed hard understeer into a corner (push) and oversteer out of a
corner because they are powered in back. so... putting batteries in the
back of a pickup improves the handleing.
My Zcar is now 51/49 but I am not going to autocross it anytime soon.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:05:08 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ultimate EV Transmission (was: newbee)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The clutches in an automatic have no springs. The firmness with which
they engage is established by this pressure. On hi power accelerations
you need more pressure or they will chatter, On lower powered
accelerations too much pressure and they slam jerking the car quiet
violently.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:04:48 -0800
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] OT, but I just couldn't avoid sharing it!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Yes... it is awesome... Rodric Wilde first shared this with me over a
year ago. Made the rounds then.. But if something is good, it comes
back... I guess..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbI-363A2Q
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:14:03 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About.
More BANG for yur buck!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About
> (-Phil-) wrote:
>> ... What happened to Ni-Cd?!?
>
> It's out of fashion :-)
>
> Seriously, it has two strikes against it. First, nickel is expensive.
> They want something that uses cheaper materials (or that at least
> *seems* to be cheaper, by being unknown or not yet monopolized).
>
> Second, cadmium is toxic. You shouldn't just throw old nicads in a
> landfill (which is exactly what everyone did with them). Lead is just as
> bad, but there are laws and recycling programs to deal with the problem
> (something like 95% of lead gets recycled).
>
> If we had the political willpower, we could have instituted the same
> laws and recycling programs for nicads as for lead-acids, and made them
> just as safe and reasonable to use. We chose not to.
> -- Hi EVerybody;
This is how I got a pile of oddball Nicads from a local battery
distributer; They were happy to fill my Ford van with pallots of them to
make them go Bye Bye! There is a place in Penns- Slo -Mania that recycles
them but YOU have to pay them to take them off your hands. No it WASNT
BB-600's, but "Alcads". Youse guyz that have been to my place have scene the
blown up ones which the "works" were squeeky clean! Plates, separaters all
were like new. No sludge, lead glop, no mess. I blew up a 6 pak;5 batteri
tied together for 6 volts.Charged the hell out of it. made it gas and got a
spark across it! They blow up as well, all SIX ! BETTER than Led Acids! I
guess they create Hydrogen, too, when over charged. Howcum? It ISN'T the
same chemistry? Whythehell do you get hydrogen or some, OTHER? explosive
gas? Sure was a surprise!! When I E- clean(REALLY pull shit out, to sweep,
vacuum an' dust)STILL find plastic schrapnel! Any battery Chemists out
there?
Seeya
Bob
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:14:11 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows
About(was:UltraCapacitors LaMoore)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Because cadmium is very toxic :-(
but the lithium intercalation principal in the lithium battery holds
promise for similar long life. At the last time I looked the failure
mode for the lithium ion is the degradation of the electrolyte that
plugs up the pores in the electrode the ions fit in. Overcharging really
accelerates this. Changing it out regularly is not practical because
oxygen can't come in contact with it. Nano tubes help keep the pores too
small to get plugged and newer aquaeas based electrolytes here reducing
degradation and oxygen contamination issues.
I am hopeful that more progress will be made in these areas.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:10:57 -0700
From: "Derek Barger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 power tools
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Very soon 18v A123 lithium will be at the stores in the US as well as
28v. There will be free upgrades for awhile for those who have the
original 18v and 28v equipment. You can take it to the nearest dealer
and the they will make your drill, etc work with all batteries. The
new charger will also charge all the batteries including the A123's.
Ryobi is using Panasonic cells.
Here is a quick video of me welding up A123 cells. The same way I did
on the Killacycle pack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vQTBoHPBxQ
Derek Barger
On Nov 24, 2007 7:55 AM, dave cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was going through the mass of circulars that came with the Thursday
> paper (thicker than the paper whole paper usually is) and I thought
> I'd look for power tools (drill, circualr saw, etc.) containing A123
> cells. Why not support the company and buy their tools. The only
> company advertising lithium cells was Ryobi. I though DeWalt was
> behind A1223, but they didn't say anything using lithium in their
> batteries. What power tools contain A123 cells? (other than
> Killacycle)
>
> Scrathing my head in New England,
>
> Dave Cover
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:08:09 -0600
From: "R. Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] battery amperage
To: ev list <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I am trying to optimize the settings for my Zilla. The question:
If I am pulling 200 amps from a 120 volt series string. Is each
battery getting hit with a 200 amp draw or is it a 20 amp draw
(200/10)? The answer will also help me pick my next battery pack.
R. M. Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica (Ford Escort)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/custom_motors/Hack+vs+Husted/
This machine had been garaged for 17 years. I have
upgraded and made it operable. Tabitha, my daughter,
named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black, electric
and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:35:01 -0800
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Car article in New York Times this
Sunday!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Article online at
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/automobiles/25DRAG.html?_r=1&ref=automobil
es&oref=slogin
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael T Kadie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:06 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Car article in New York Times this Sunday!
Hurray for us!
I'm told it will be online Saturday on the paper's web site at
<outbind://10/www.nytimes.com/autos> www.nytimes.com/autos.
And I hope the pictures of my car come out well.
KD builder 2.S.S.I.C. http://ssi-racing.com
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:37:19 -0800
From: JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery amperage
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
R. Matt Milliron wrote:
> I am trying to optimize the settings for my Zilla. The question:
>
> If I am pulling 200 amps from a 120 volt series string. Is each
> battery getting hit with a 200 amp draw or is it a 20 amp draw
> (200/10)? The answer will also help me pick my next battery pack.
>
Matt, the current in a series string is always the same in each battery.
John in sylmar
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:43:00 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Re gen on DC
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain
-------------- Original message from "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
>
> Shunt boost chopper DC regen works fine. I built a three in one controller
> in 1971 that was a combined motor controller, boost regen, and battery
> charger all in one electonic package using SCR's and a SEPEX motor. It
> worked great.
Hi George
I read your reply and was wondering if I could get any informaton on the three
in
one controller you described. Is it possible to buy schematic and part list. I
am in
process of building a street bike EV and space is limited.
Thanks
Rick Prentiss
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:58:46 -0500
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery amperage
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 24 Nov 2007 at 10:37, JS wrote:
> Matt, the current in a series string is always the same in each battery.
To clarify, the current does not divide among the batteries in a series
string, so it's 200 amps from each battery.
In series, voltage adds and current stays the same.
In parallel, current adds and voltage stays the same.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:08:05 -0800
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is this a vaible motor?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If the shaft is truly 2"+5/8 then some photoshop measurements suggest
that the armature housing is about 21" diameter. It's a beast of a
motor. Perhaps suitable for direct driving a hummer.
On Nov 24, 2007 8:20 AM, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ebay 220174479206
>
> I think it is too massive, but it is hard to tell from the info on the
> page and I can't read that label.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:57:07 -0500
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Secret Battery Technology No One Knows About
(was: UltraCapacitors LaMoore)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 24 Nov 2007 at 3:38, (-Phil-) wrote:
> If these batteries were cheaper, they would really make
> EV maintenance a no-brainer.
>
> What happened to Ni-Cd?!?
For a while, around a decade ago, a few types of Saft nicads were available
from stock, at not-quite-unreasonable prices. A typical EV pack could be
had for $8-12k.
They are no longer in regular production. IMO (and this opinion may be a
bit controversial) that's partly Saft's own fault.
Saft went into production because several countries passed legislation
encouraging and subsidizing EV pilot programs. Saft supplied batteries for
many of the limited-production EVs including the Peugeot and Renault EVs.
They were a relatively new design which minimized watering, and this seems
to be where the problems originated.
The batteries Saft supplied proved troublesome. They didn't live up to the
cycle life performance set by earlier models. There were catastrophic
failures; batteries ruptured and exploded.
You can read more about this (alleged) defect here :
http://www.evdl.org/docs/saft-failures.pdf
If operated very carefully, with discharge current strictly limited, the
failures could be minimized, but then of course vehicle performance was
limited. Whether the vehicle makers actually fitted these limits to the
cars is unclear to me.
Saft reportedly initially denied that their batteries were the problem, but
finally in the early 2000s they redesigned the separators. This greatly
reduced the failure rate.
However, by that time the damage was done. The pilot program EVs had not
proven to be reliable. Some of the program participants and directors
declared the pilot programs a failure. The nicad-equipped cars dropped off
the lists of available vehicles. Toward the end of the programs, the EV
lists I saw contained mostly scooters and bikes.
I'm not a European, only reacting to what I've read online, and to be fair
I'll yield to the judgement of those who were really there and saw what
happened. However, it appears to me that this debacle set European EV
development back 5-10 years.
(BTW, from what I understand, this problem never affected the older design
modules with removeable cell caps - just the MR (reduced maintenance) range
with closed tops. Someone please correct me if that impression is wrong.)
When the EU passed stringent new regulations on cadmium use, that was the
final nail in the coffin for Saft's nicads.
As for the cost of nickel, that's unquestionably an issue. Like many other
metals, it's gone to the sky for many reasons. However, doesn't it seem odd
that consumer NiMH cells haven't increased much in price? There are still
plenty of good quality AA cells available at around $2.50 each retail.
Perhaps it's just competition that keeps those cells cheap. And once you
get beyond golf car batteries, there certainly isn't much of THAT in the
world of EV-size batteries.
A footnote. In the early 1990s, Saft had plans to build a plant to
manufacture NiMH batteries in the US. They abandoned those plans when the
California ZEV legislation (Braude Initiative) was weakened. I could
comment on that, but it's probably better not to as it could head into
political territory, so I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:58:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link there today
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Maybe I missed it, but they didn't mention the WZ's
1/4 mile time.
They didn't mention a four motor project that Jim's
working on, but I haven't heard it mentioned on the
list. So Jim, can you give us more details?
Rod
--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all
>
> The article is available online today and in print
> tomorrow. Just thought I'd throw up the link.
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/automobiles/25DRAG.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better pen pal.
> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
> how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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End of EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 67
*********************************
