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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Is BMS needed for li-ion? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   2. Re: Under the hood of the Volt ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   3. Re: Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood
      ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   4. Re: Online NY Times article link there today ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   5. Re: Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood (Derek Barger)
   6. Re: McGill University Electric Snowmobile Team website
      (dave cover)
   7. Re: Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood ((-Phil-))
   8. Re: Is BMS needed for li-ion? (Lee Hart)
   9. Re: DIY Zener-Regulator How-To on YouTube (Lee Hart)
  10. Re: EV research funding (Lee Hart)
  11. Re: Is BMS needed for li-ion? (Bill Dube)
  12. Re: McGill University Electric Snowmobile Team website (Bill Dube)
  13. Re: Online NY Times article link there today (Ryan Stotts)
  14. Re: Online NY Times article link there today (keith vansickle)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:43:54 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is BMS needed for li-ion?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain

Bill
  I hope you haven't covered this before but what BMS do you use and how many 
cycles
do you expect from your battery pack?
Rick Prentiss

-------------- Original message from Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-------------- 


> I've seen folks sell products without a BMS with disastrous results. 
> It never ends well. It often ends up in a lawsuit and/or a bankruptcy. 
> 
> The self-discharge is very strongly influenced by temperature. The 
> center cells are ALWAYS a different temperature than the end cells. 
> Thus, no matter how closely matched the cells are off the assembly 
> line, they will go out of balance quickly in a battery pack. 
> 
> Once you slightly "wound" a cell by overcharge or under voltage, the 
> pack goes out of balance very quickly. The pack won't last more than 
> a few cycles. 
> 
> I think the consumer will be willing to pay twice as much for a pack 
> that will last 1500 cycles as they would for a pack that will last 10 
> to 20 cycles. You will end up paying the price of the BMS, one way or 
> another. 
> 
> Bill Dube' 
> 
> The fact that inexpensive-to-produce, practical, BMS electronics are 
> possible is what makes these modern battery technologies possible. 
> Chemistries that produce the best power and energy require the 
> protection electronics. It is the engineering compromise that has 
> been made, and you must accept that fact. 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> For subscription options, see 
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:31:48 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Under the hood of the Volt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=US-ASCII;       format=flowed


Did you expect any thing else?

> Even better! GM supplies more BS than truth.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:00:52 -0800
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

The white box is a Kirkland laundry detergent box.  Must be what handles the
greenwashing.

-----Original Message-----
I never did figure out what those three boxes with a single cable each were.
And what is that box in the driver side corner?  And the purpose of the
white bucket?




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:08:33 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link there today
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Rod,

Jim can fill you in on the motor info but he is building them for my 
new "Juiced Up" dragster.
Some of you have probably already heard of this project. It has taken 
us longer than we would have like but it is for real. Here are the 
general specs as they stand right now.

4pcs Hi-Torque 9" motors
4pcs 2K HV "Zillas"
4500+ A123 LI cell battery/reg system
225 inch "Lightning" NHRA/IHRA approved chassis

All the above will be complete and in house by the end of the year. The 
primary objective of this project and this car (aside from going very 
fast) is to build on the NEDRA foundation that is the result of 10 
years of hard work and dedication by so many key pioneers, (you know 
who you are), and tour the country promoting NEDRA and the sport of 
electric drag racing.

On a related note, I am putting together an acceptance letter for the 
NEDRA presidency position (Thank you everyone for you votes) in which I 
will layout more details for my goals for 2008. Obviously, "Juiced Up" 
will be a big part of that.


Shawn Lawless

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link there today



Maybe I missed it, but they didn't mention the WZ's
1/4 mile time.
They didn't mention a four motor project that Jim's
working on, but I haven't heard it mentioned on the
list. So Jim, can you give us more details?
Rod

--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey all
>
> The article is available online today and in print
> tomorrow. Just thought I'd throw up the link.
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/automobiles/25DRAG.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
___________
> Be a better pen pal.
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>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:34:12 -0700
From: "Derek Barger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Notice the Curtis controller up in the back corner on TED6 and TED5.
That is why it ran so slow in the video and made alot of noise.

Derek B.

On Nov 25, 2007 12:27 AM, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> found the under the hood photos:
> http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html
>
> I light blasted the photos so we can better see:
> http://www.zev.dk/misc/TED6.jpg
> http://www.zev.dk/misc/TED5.jpg
>
> interesting : )
> doesn't that look like a DC series motor? (anything but EV1 technology)
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Dan Frederiksen skrev:
> > interesting. do you have those by any chance?
> >
> > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >
> >> The Tesla site had under hood pics posted at one time.  It looked like
> >> a single D&D motor and a single AGM battery for the show car as seen
> >> moving in the third video.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:37:58 -0500
From: "dave cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] McGill University Electric Snowmobile Team website
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Not a peep on their site about battereis. Does anyone know what they
used? Range? Running time?

Dave Cover

On Nov 25, 2007 2:47 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://electricsnowmobile.mcgill.ca/English/index.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:58:41 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

They look like fiber-optic metal-halide light sources.

Probably to light up the dash, maybe for the body lighting....

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt on Youtube -- photos under the hood


> Dan wrote:
> 
>> found the under the hood photos:
>> http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html
>>
>> I light blasted the photos so we can better see:
>> http://www.zev.dk/misc/TED6.jpg
>> http://www.zev.dk/misc/TED5.jpg
> 
> I never did figure out what those three boxes with a single cable each
> were.  And what is that box in the driver side corner?  And the
> purpose of the white bucket?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:58:00 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is BMS needed for li-ion?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Daniel Cardenas wrote:
> 1) I'm adding a large guard band to the voltage specs, both high and 
>    low. Max cell voltage is 4.25, I'm only going to 3.75. Min voltage 
>    per cell is 2.5, I'm trying to stay above 2.75V. So if they are
>    off a bit, no sweat.

The problem is that on each successive charge/discharge cycle, they
drift farther and farther apart. You can match your brand new cells so
their voltages are identical. After one cycle, they differ by 0.01v.
After two, by 0.02v, then 0.03v, then 0.04v etc. If nothing corrects it,
the differences eventually get so large that some cells are seriously
overcharged while others don't come close to being full.

Likewise, on discharge, you don't know which cell is getting the lowest;
all you know is the total voltage. Say you have ten cells. If you keep
driving until the total hits 27v, that might be ten at 2.7v/cell each, 
or it might be nine at 3v/cell and one at ZERO volts!

> 2) Paktrakr or other method can be used to monitor potentially
>    failing cells and replace them as needed.

Monitoring is fine. But can you depend on someone to actually do it, and 
actually replace any cells that are "just a little weak". Human nature 
being what it is, people will forget to check, or ignore warnings to get 
"just a little farther".

> Not sure if battery replacement will cost more than a BMS in the long
> run.

I believe a BMS always pays for itself with lithiums.

> So my options are: 1. Increase the guard band 2. Get a half BMS, just
> works during charge or discharge 3. Full BMS.

You don't need a $1000 BMS for a scooter. But you need *something* to
keep them healthy, or you'll soon have many dissatisfied customers and
maybe a fire or two!

A minimal BMS would be something like my zener-lamp regulators, which 
are under $5 per cell. But you'd have to use something other than a 
zener at 3.6v/cell, like a TL431 zener equivalent.

For a low-voltage shutdown, use something like my Batt-Bridge circuit. 
It doesn't tell you which cell is low, but it will tell you that *some* 
cell is low. Use it to warn the operator and shut down the scooter. 
Again, this is only $10 or so worth of parts.

One other option that I find interesting as an engineer. We recently 
talked about boost converters instead of buck converters for the motor 
controller. For a scooter, you can use a single large lithium cell and a 
boost converter to step this up to 36v or so. There is no need for a BMS 
with a single cell. :-)
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:14:15 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY Zener-Regulator How-To on YouTube
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Loni wrote:
> I thought about puting the lamps in the middle too, but on US
> Electricar Prisms anything that isn't tucked down next to the
> terminals stands a good chance of being crunched when the pack is
> sandwiched up to the floorboards. I decided not to chance it.

Agreed. I've seen this on their S10 conversions, too. The only other 
option for the lamps is the space for the hand grips on the tops of the 
Hawkers.

> Where did you find "heavy duty" ring terminals?

www.waytekwire.com #36472. The heavy duty ones are called "eyelets". I 
used ones for #6 wire because the zener diodes I used fit inside.

> PS: Guys like me who are taking the plunge into EV ownership from 
> non-electrical backgrounds owe a real debt of gratitude to those who
> put forth ideas for such things as zener-regs. Next time you're in
> Portland I'm buying the beer... : )

Thanks! But contributions to the Sunrise project would be worthy 
alternative. Every penny helps! :-)

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:47:28 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV research funding
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

David Sharpe wrote:
> Australian Electric Vehicle Association (AEVA) is considering funding some 
> Australian Universities in a small way (1000s of dollars) to provide a prize 
> for a final year undergraduate or perhaps PhD project for some promising 
> project that might advance EVs perhaps in battery chemistry or drives. I 
> will be on the working group. I call for suggestions that we can put to the 
> universities.

$1000 isn't much. I would suggest a small project that won't take too 
much time, or that you band together with other groups to have a larger 
"prize".

Here are a few ideas I would like to see done:

1. An in-car EV simulator.

    A "black box" that you sit in your car. It has a GPS receiver, so
    it knows where you are and how fast you're going. You type in your
    actual gas mileage for a tank of gas. Its software then uses the
    route you drove and your actual fuel economy to predict how much
    power an EV (or hydrogen or diesel or propane or other alternate
    energy source) would have taken to do the same job.

    My hope is that by displaying real-time estimated cost per mile
    with various fuels, drivers would change their driving habits to
    be more efficient, and would realize that almost any fuel but
    gasoline would be cheaper!

2. A fuzzy logic battery state-of-charge gauge.

    Batteries are notoriously difficult to model. All state-of-charge
    gauges so far either use poor measurements and weak assumptions,
    or excessively analytical techniques only loosely connected to
    reality.

    Fuzzy logic is a form of simple expert system, that uses rules
    to figure things out. It is very effective for problems like this,
    where you have insufficient data and poor analytical models.
    Basically, fuzzy logic does what an expert human does; look at
    how the battery behaves, its demonstrated capacity, and comes up
    with rules to estimate future behavior.

3. Update an old technology.

    Pick an old technology that was successfully demonstrated, but is
    now "lost" or ignored; like Tom Edison's nickel-iron cell, Nikola
    Tesla's hundred-pole motor, or Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car.
    Apply modern knowledge to it -- do we know things now that the
    original inventor did not know that could make it useful today?

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:50:18 -0700
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is BMS needed for li-ion?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

We have a very simplistic BMS on the KillaCycle at this time. Steve 
Ciciora calls it the "Opto-Bio-Mechanical Feedback" BMS. There are 
two LEDs associated with each parallel group of cells. You turn on 
the charger and watch the lights like a hawk. When a green LED come 
on, this means that parallel bank of cells is "full enough". If the 
red LED comes on too, it means that that bank is "completely" full 
and you need to turn down the knob on the charger. The operator turns 
down the knob when he sees any red LEDs, while waiting for all the 
green LEDs to come on. When all the green LEDs come on, the operator 
turns off the charger.

The system is simple, lightweight, reliable, but labor-intensive. It 
works great for drag racing.

While this is just fine for a drag racing application where you have 
a person that will watch the pack and turn the knob, it is not 
suitable for a daily-driver EV application.

         The very first pack of A123 Systems M1 cells that we ever 
built is still working perfectly. We ran it for 18 months of racing 
in the KillaCycle, lent it to Shawn Lawless to set a record in a 
dragster, and lent it to John Wayland to set a NEDRA record in his 
White Zombie street-legal EV. We have never replaced a single cell in 
it. It is still at 100% its original HP output.

         We have no idea how many cycles we will get from this 
original racing pack. We estimate that is would last for about five 
years of racing every weekend, but that is just an estimate. We won't 
really know until we actually wear it out.

         Bill Dube'

At 05:43 AM 11/25/2007, you wrote:
>Bill
>   I hope you haven't covered this before but what BMS do you use 
> and how many cycles
>do you expect from your battery pack?
>Rick Prentiss
>
>-------------- Original message from Bill Dube 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: --------------
>
>
> > I've seen folks sell products without a BMS with disastrous results.
> > It never ends well. It often ends up in a lawsuit and/or a bankruptcy.
> >
> > The self-discharge is very strongly influenced by temperature. The
> > center cells are ALWAYS a different temperature than the end cells.
> > Thus, no matter how closely matched the cells are off the assembly
> > line, they will go out of balance quickly in a battery pack.
> >
> > Once you slightly "wound" a cell by overcharge or under voltage, the
> > pack goes out of balance very quickly. The pack won't last more than
> > a few cycles.
> >
> > I think the consumer will be willing to pay twice as much for a pack
> > that will last 1500 cycles as they would for a pack that will last 10
> > to 20 cycles. You will end up paying the price of the BMS, one 
> way or another.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > The fact that inexpensive-to-produce, practical, BMS electronics are
> > possible is what makes these modern battery technologies possible.
> > Chemistries that produce the best power and energy require the
> > protection electronics. It is the engineering compromise that has
> > been made, and you must accept that fact.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:21:15 -0700
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] McGill University Electric Snowmobile Team website
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

   I was thumbing through the photos and I looked at the one with the 
covers off. I could not believe that they have retained the belt 
drive CVT. From my perspective, one of the main advantages of going 
to an electric drive was the ability to get rid of that inefficient CVT.

        I'm curious if they did the calculations comparing an electric drive 
designed to run a simple direct reduction (chain?) to an electric 
drive that used the CVT. The motor size drops a bit with the CVT, but 
the efficiency is likely to be terrible.

        Bill Dube'



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:08:32 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link there today
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> All the above will be complete and in house by the end of the year.

I like that. ;)



>  tour the country promoting NEDRA and the sport of
> electric drag racing.


Any 1/4 mile estimations?  I don't have a clue what something like
that could run in the 1/4.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:59:13 -0800 (PST)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link there today
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Shawn,
sure hope it is finished enough to bring to either BBB
or electric dragin as I am sure it would be the show
stopper at either event.
kEVs
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Rod,
> 
> Jim can fill you in on the motor info but he is
> building them for my 
> new "Juiced Up" dragster.
> Some of you have probably already heard of this
> project. It has taken 
> us longer than we would have like but it is for
> real. Here are the 
> general specs as they stand right now.
> 
> 4pcs Hi-Torque 9" motors
> 4pcs 2K HV "Zillas"
> 4500+ A123 LI cell battery/reg system
> 225 inch "Lightning" NHRA/IHRA approved chassis
> 
> All the above will be complete and in house by the
> end of the year. The 
> primary objective of this project and this car
> (aside from going very 
> fast) is to build on the NEDRA foundation that is
> the result of 10 
> years of hard work and dedication by so many key
> pioneers, (you know 
> who you are), and tour the country promoting NEDRA
> and the sport of 
> electric drag racing.
> 
> On a related note, I am putting together an
> acceptance letter for the 
> NEDRA presidency position (Thank you everyone for
> you votes) in which I 
> will layout more details for my goals for 2008.
> Obviously, "Juiced Up" 
> will be a big part of that.
> 
> 
> Shawn Lawless
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 2:58 pm
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Online NY Times article link
> there today
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but they didn't mention the WZ's
> 1/4 mile time.
> They didn't mention a four motor project that Jim's
> working on, but I haven't heard it mentioned on the
> list. So Jim, can you give us more details?
> Rod
> 
> --- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Hey all
> >
> > The article is available online today and in print
> > tomorrow. Just thought I'd throw up the link.
> >
> >
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/automobiles/25DRAG.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles&oref=slogin
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> ___________
> > Be a better pen pal.
> > Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
> > how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check
> out free AOL Mail! - 
> http://mail.aol.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



      
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