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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Volt revisited (Zeke Yewdall)
2. Re: Volt revisited (Morgan LaMoore)
3. Re: Volt revisited (Dan Frederiksen)
4. Re: Dead in the Garage: TEVan Batteries Still Not Taking a
Charge (David Roden)
5. Re: Cabin Heat (David Roden)
6. Re: ADC motor (S Collins)
7. Re: Black & Decker (was: A123 power tools) (dave cover)
8. Re: Cabin Heat (Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G)
9. Re: Lining it all up without vibration (Walter Guinon)
10. Re gen on DC (Mike Cook)
11. Re: simmering batteries for breakfast (Roland Wiench)
12. Re: RE CoOp building (Ted Sanders)
13. Re: Volt revisited ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
14. EV Financing (Todd Martin)
15. ExxMob is even getting on the li-ion bandwagon. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
16. Re: Re gen on DC (Jeff Major)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:09:41 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt revisited
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I thought I heard recently that you can't charge a pack while also
> using it. Could be wrong on that one.
With proper controls, you can easily charge and discharge at the same
time. I do it all the time (not in EV's, but in PV battery banks).
The only trick is that your controller might see higher voltages now,
compared to if it's only operating during discharge conditions.
Z
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:21:18 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt revisited
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> I thought I heard recently that you can't charge a pack while also
> using it. Could be wrong on that one.
You're half-right. You can't charge a pack and discharge it at the
same time. But, you can seamlessly switch between charging and
discharging. Just connect a load (motor), a supply (generator or solar
panels), and a buffer (batteries) together. When the supply provides
more than enough current for the load, the extra current goes into the
batteries. When the supply isn't making enough current for the load,
the batteries provide the extra. The batteries act like a buffer,
providing any current that's needed and storing the extra current for
future use.
This is what the solar cars do. It doesn't even need any extra
circuitry to switch between charging and discharging. The solar panel
electronics just provide current at the bus voltage; it doesn't "care"
whether the battery is charging or discharging. Depending on the
sunlight and motor current, the battery will either charge or
discharge. When the battery is almost full, it tells the solar panel
electronics to first go to a low setting, then turn off.
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:31:40 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt revisited
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That under the hood thing
> is absolute horror, a kitty box, get real. I am sure it was not to be
> seen but it was. Some dolt showing it decided to open the hood and
> photos made it out. Ouch for GM again.
>
nah that's not an ouch directly. no shame in making a mock up concept
car. they didn't present it as a finished product so no faux pas there.
but indirectly it's unfortunate because it demonstrates that they
haven't been working on it as an EV. if they had a project going much
prior to the pulication you would expect to see the result of that EV
development. when they only show a design concept with studio motor in
that means it's just a design concept and they made the decision after
the two critical documentaries who killed the electric car and an
inconvenient truth. I tried to get GM to admit that but it didn't take :)
> I thought I heard recently that you can't charge a pack while also
> using it. Could be wrong on that one.
you can't but you don't need to either. when the genset is running it is
powering both motor and batteries. it's just a bit counter intuitive
that can flow into the power source (batteries) but it can. there are
even windmills hooked up to the mains such that the meter runs backward
and the power company pays you : )
you need some controlling electronics that isn't always simple but it
can be done with a single battery pack. the Volt will do so no doubt.
> My extra genset
> is for running a small home. It is a single cylinder diesel with an
> 8kw ac generator. It will pump out 110 at 60 amps or 220 at 30.
> Converted to DC would this work? It is not a genset to stuff into the
> trunk? I am unsure of the size of genset that would be needed.
>
depending on the size of it I think it could be used but probably needs
to be adapted with some other control electronics. it could be switched
on manually for instance. the current electronics would probably be
confused by the varying voltage in the EV but maybe with only slight
modification
> Enough for now. I will try to refrain from too much ranting as I
> still need to learn more before I open my mouth and insert foot again.
>
ranting is ok, but best to be right when you do : )
the Volt body design is not my favorite either. has that misguided US
retro muscle car design philosophy that some US car makers seem to be
stuck on but has plenty of presense that it will get attention and help
EV proliferation. It's like they watched the movie back to the future
and figured Biff Tannen was the hero :) the crude brute rather than
elegant sophistication.
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:30:04 -0500
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dead in the Garage: TEVan Batteries Still Not
Taking a Charge
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Did you follow Saft's instructions and run a proper charge cycle before
watering? The procedere to be followed before watering is quite specific.
If not carried out correctly the batteries will later overflow and will lose
electrolyte concentration. You may have to ship them back to Saft for
service if this happens.
Saft manuals are available from the EVDL library :
http://www.evdl.org/lib/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:30:04 -0500
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cabin Heat
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 28 Nov 2007 at 8:06, Jay Caplan wrote:
> I am thinking with only 96VDC instead of 120VAC, the heater would produce
> 1200W, use 12.5A?
At 96v It will be 960 Watts, not 1200 Watts. Both current and voltage will
be 0.8 nominal, so power will be 0.64 nominal.
I don't think you'll find this kind of heater very useful in an EV. For one
thing, it won't help keep your windshield clear.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:40:26 -0800 (PST)
From: S Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ADC motor
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
May I ask where you got the trans adapter and
coupler(s) made? Will it be clutch or clutchless?
I've been thinking about selecting a Focus to convert
to an EV.
Thanks,
Scott
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:47:17 -0500
From: "dave cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Black & Decker (was: A123 power tools)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 11/24/07, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just so everyone knows, Black and Decker is who makes DeWalt tools. It is
> their "professional" division, where tools labeled "B&D" are generally
> marketed for home use.
>
I just saw the VPX system for the time at Home Depot. It's based on a
7.2 volt battery, (must be two cells in there.) It's not a heavy duty
system, but it looks nice. It will probably sell well to the hobbiests
or the "casual" home owner. It's certainly not going to replace any
12, 14.4 or 18 volt drills, but it might be worth trying out.
The starter kit includes a drill, light, battery, charger and an
interesting saw that look like a miniature sawzall.
Looking forward to the big brothers of these tools.
Dave Cover
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:04:00 -0500
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cabin Heat
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am confused. Remembering back to electronics 101
DC equivalent is .636 of peak right? 120VAC that is 60V peak x .636 =
38.16 VDC
So 96VDC converted to equivalent AC would be 96V / .636 = 150.94 volts
peak which would be 301.886 VAC
What am I missing?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:30
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cabin Heat
On 28 Nov 2007 at 8:06, Jay Caplan wrote:
> I am thinking with only 96VDC instead of 120VAC, the heater would
> produce 1200W, use 12.5A?
At 96v It will be 960 Watts, not 1200 Watts. Both current and voltage
will be 0.8 nominal, so power will be 0.64 nominal.
I don't think you'll find this kind of heater very useful in an EV. For
one thing, it won't help keep your windshield clear.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:11:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Walter Guinon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lining it all up without vibration
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Roy;
Are there similar thumb rules for lining up a FWD transaxle?
Hi Damon
Though the vibration problem may be in your motor/flywheel/trans assembly,
it is just as important to keep the shaft/centerline of the
motor/transmission parallel to the shaft/centerline of the pinion shaft to
within 2-3 degrees regardless of the driveshaft angle. This is standard
procedure for folks in the driveline business.
HTH!
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:10:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Mike Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Re gen on DC
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hi,
I have been following this exchange with some interest. Is there some way you
could post a sketch someplace where everyone could see it? I've done a lot of
work on the old GE EV-1 controllers on forklifts and was wondering how you
could do regen with SCR controllers.
Mike
>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:09:12 -0800
>From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Re gen on DC
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>Jeff, I will send you a private email with a sketch of the
>schematic. I
>don't think I can attach it to the EVDL.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:28:17 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] simmering batteries for breakfast
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Ben,
I have T-145's and if the battery temperature gets to 60 degrees, then I do
not attempt to charge them to 100% which is 6.37 volts at 1.277 SG after
they rest for about 12 hours.
The normal charge for these type of batteries is 7.4 volts or 192.4 volts at
a battery temperature of 80 degrees F for a pack of 26.
For every drop of 10 degrees below 80 F, then you add 0.028 volts per cell
to the charging volts. So if the batteries are at 60 F, then that is a 20
degrees drop or 2 x 0.028 = 0.056 charging volts you add per cell or (0.056
x 3 cells) = 0.168 volts per battery.
7.4 + 0.168 = 7.568 per battery or 196.76 V for the pack.
The 202 to 205 volts that you have listed is the equalization charge for
this battery. I only do this about every 6 months when the batteries are
cooler, so I do not boil them out.
The equalization charge for these batteries are 7.8 V at 80 degree F. So at
this temperature a pack of 26 will be 26 x 7.8 = 208.8 volts.
If the battery temperature is starting out at 60 F then you add the 0.056
volts per cell or 0.168 volts per battery for the 20 degrees drop. The
charging volts now becomes 26 x (7.8 + 0.168) = 207.1 volts according to the
Trojan manual.
I find its best to only add 0.028 v to the 7.8 for 7.828 volt to each
battery for a equalization charge, because in with one hour of this
charging, the battery will be up to about 75 F.
So at 7.828 V this becomes 203.5 volts for the pack.
The 7.1 to 7.3 is not a bad spread if you are only going to discharge these
batteries only to 50% DOD which is recommended for these type of batteries.
The Trojan manual recommends a equalization charge when the batteries get to
5 percent difference or about 0.35 volts!
I have now been running my batteries now for 6 years and I just got done do
my equalization charge where I had only one battery at a 0.3 volt difference
from one high battery, one at 0.2 volts and all the other are in within 0.1
volts.
You can down load the Trojan Battery Maintenance Manual at:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/customercare_batterymaint9.html
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: [EVDL] simmering batteries for breakfast
> So, my 26 T-125's were subjected to some torture the past few days.
>
> The normally automatic Zivan which would red,yellow,green mode the
> batteries has not been reaching yellow or green mode.
>
> The past few days it won't leave red mode because it can't get the voltage
> high enough 200-205. (reason? cold weather or bad batteries?)
> resulting in torturing the batteries at 174 volts or 183 volts at around
> 12
> Amps long past a full battery. depending on the temperature
> This morning the batteries were quite damp on top and opening the covers
> shows good gassing going on.
> no dry plates yet though thankfully
>
> History: Starting about a month ago, it had some difficulty in yellow
> mode.
>
> I have had no voltage sag problem with driving 20-30 miles. The batteries
> are behaving fairly normally. I haven't tried to reach my max 50-60
> miles.
>
> as far as balancing between batteries, at 183 volts, the range seems to be
> 6 batteries at ~ 7 volts
> 10 batteres at ~ 7.1 volts
> 10 batteries at ~ 7.2 volts
>
> Should I be blaming Zivan for not attaining the max voltage or be
> considerring the 2.5 year old batteries to be the culprit?
>
>
> any other diagnostics to determine what's going on?
> i can try my 115 VAC Zivan to see if that can get higher, but I doubt it
> will.
>
> Near term solution is to get a 220 Volt AC timer and charge only as long
> as
> needed.
>
>
> Thanks, Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:30:08 -0600
From: Ted Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE CoOp building
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The Fox Valley Electric Automobile Association has helped several members
convert their cars. The owner of the car supplies all of the parts. Other
club members help on the weekends. People with specific skills such as welding
are a great help. Beginners get to watch the difficult tasks and to perform
tasks that they are comfortable with. I believe that it helps people make
decision about what vehicle they wish to convert. The work is done in the
owners garage. We are about to complete this years conversion and have people
thinking about asking the club to help with their conversion next summer.
Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:12:05 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
> ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE CoOp building> > pretty much sums
> it up, glad I don't always have to be> the one to bring reality to this
> list.. Jack> > >> My point is,,,If you want one, build it your> self, if you
> cant, have> some one do it, if you cant afford it, stop trying to> get it for
> free,> > > --- wayne alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > there was a
> thread awhile back about> > "standardization" of building an EV, I say WHY, I
> do> > them the way they work the best and simplest, why> > should I change to
> suit some one else that wants to> > over kill an EV with crap it doesn't
> need. Same way> > with Co-Op building, you get a dozen guys together,> > a
> few cases of beer, to big of EGOS, and then you> > start, this should be
> good, Guy #1 says, your welds> > are like pelican crap on wood, guy#2 says,
> you cant> > wire it that way, Guy #3 says Its beer time. > > 5 days later !
the motor is bolted to the door> > handle, the controller is burnt to a crisp,
and all> > your shoes are melted from battery acid, SO my> > question is....
'WHO OWNS THE DAMN THING, AND WHO> > PUT UP ALL THE MONEY" > > > > My point
is,,,If you want one, build it your> > self, if you cant, have some one do it,
if you cant> > afford it, stop trying to get it for free, now I> > understand
why Electric Auto wont answer E-mails and> > their phones > > this will be my
last post, I will read them, but> > not post, to many experts, and way to many
people> > with to much time on their hands, I EVs to build> > for a liveing ,
and a lot of them> > > > wayne ev-blue.com > >
_______________________________________________> > For subscription options,
see> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> > > >
_______________________________________________> For subscription options, see>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:33:16 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt revisited
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
: )
Thanks for all that info. Now to let it sink in. That makes a big
difference knowing how things work even if its still surface
knowledge. I am no electronic expert. I'd like to dig in further so
off I go to google land.
Now for figuring out the controls for hooking all three up at one
time. Maybe a few super caps in the mix for helping move from a stop.
Regen? To help save brakes and dump back a little power. Thinking DC
of course. For my Datsun. Maybe a D&D SepEx with regen and a small
genset. Mmmmmmm. sounds more promising now. I will be back to pick
the brains of you gurus later. : )
Thanks all.
Pete
On Nov 28, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> the crude brute rather than
> elegant sophistication.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:33:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Financing
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
After reading a recent post saying roughly "do it yourself, hire someone, or
stop expecting an EV for free", I got to thinking about EV conversion
financing.
When I bought my Force, I was lucky enough to have a local Credit Union give
me a signature loan to purchase the vehicle (at 10.5% interest over 2
years). Used car loans are difficult to apply to an EV since they don't fit
the usual categories that banks are accustomed too. Also, they are sold
typically by individuals instead of used car lots. The problem is
compounded with a conversion kit, since a bank would have trouble accepting
the parts as collateral on the loan. Remember, not every person that tries
to make an EV conversion succeeds! Even when they do, it often takes far
longer than anticipated.
What we need is a financial institution that is interested in this issue.
Here is what I propose:
The Electric Auto Association (EAA) or some similar EV advocacy group sets
up a trust fund. Individuals purchase a "private EV loan insurance" from
the EAA to guarantee their EV conversion loan that is underwriten by a Bank.
This would be similar to Private Mortgage Insurance, for people who don't
have enough down payment to qualify for a home loan otherwise.
The EAA gets paid a little bit of money from each individual that takes out
one of these loans, which covers the "payout" of the occasional default.
Banks win because they get a guaranteed loan. Individuals win because they
have an easy way to get a loan, perhaps below "signature loan" rates (since
they are guaranteed). The EAA wins because they are leveraging a little bit
of money into a lot of conversions and if done correctly is self-sustaining.
Is this a wise idea?
Thanks,
Todd Martin
VP, FVEAA
1997 Solectria Force
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View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/EV-Financing-tf4891759s25542.html#a14007797
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:43:10 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] ExxMob is even getting on the li-ion bandwagon.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22007942/for/cnbc/
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:52:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Re gen on DC
To: Mike Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Mike,
It is George's property. He was kind enough to send
it to me. I wouldn't post it publicly without his
permission. Not sure I know how to do that anyway.
Be advised that it is for sep-ex and the GE EV1 SCR
controllers were for series motors. Cableform made
regen series SRC controllers way back when. I have
one on my electric delivery Jeep. Never did work
reliably. Have it defeated now. You might be able to
run across a Cableform schematic somewhere.
Regards,
Jeff M
--- Mike Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> I have been following this exchange with some
> interest. Is there some way you could post a sketch
> someplace where everyone could see it? I've done a
> lot of work on the old GE EV-1 controllers on
> forklifts and was wondering how you could do regen
> with SCR controllers.
>
> Mike
>
> >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:09:12 -0800
> >From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Re gen on DC
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> >Jeff, I will send you a private email with a
> sketch of the
> >schematic. I
> >don't think I can attach it to the EVDL.
>
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End of EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 81
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