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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: K2, yet another unresponsive battery company (Peter Oliver)
   2. Re: Trying to decide (Peter VanDerWal)
   3. Re: 123 batteries ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   4. Re: Trying to decide (Chuck Homic)


Message: 1
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:13:37 -0800
From: "Peter Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] K2, yet another unresponsive battery company
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

The reason I did not include the verbal quote is that it was verbal...I
heard them quote different numbers - higher - to others..Why, I do not know.

The EV cell was quoted at $6.50 - in units of 3,000 

Around the corner PHET quoted between $4.40 and $4.80 for their cells
BUNDLED in the Prismatic Battery pack....I am still curious about the
effects of the internal wiring and fusing on the performance of the bundles.
How much resistance is added when EACH cell has a fuse?  If the performance
is unaffected this seems like a terrific product.  not the actual pack
they are selling test
results from the pack they sell cell specs

-----Original Message-----
Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] K2, yet another unresponsive battery company

sigh, why not say what they told you??? it's this kind of obtuseness we 
are fighting and you take part in it. noone asked you to keep secrets, 
you just go there as the first thing you do..  Jesus Christ!

Peter Oliver wrote:
> Pretty much the entire sales staff was in Anaheim for EVS23.  They were
> aggressive in their pricing to me in person, we will see when the quote
> comes in writing.

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:28:28 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trying to decide
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

You (as an Individual) can't legally convert a car to run on Natural Gas
(or techincally any fuel other than the one it was designed for).

In fact the only legal conversion is to battery power (with the exception
of one state), or to other fuels as long as the engine is unmodified and
can still run on it's orignal fuel.

This is a Federal statute and deals with emissions controls.  Apparently
they were having problems with folks converting to CNG and propane and
ending up producing much more pollution than the car originally did.

FWIW one state (minnisota?) requires electric conversions be done by
licensed converters.

So your options are a pure EV or perhaps a diesel running biodiesel.  Or
you can purchase a car designed to run on CNG or propane or one converted
by a certified converter.

> I had posted before about trying to find an electric vehicle conversion to
> proceed with for a commute that is about 20 miles in each direction and I
> am
> having a difficult time finding something that sounds like it would be a
> reliable choice for making the entire commute on a single charge.
> I am really wanting to get totally away from any fuel that mainly comes
> from
> the Middle East.
> With no charging station at work, is it possible to run a generator that
> has
> been converted to work with natural gas and use that to charge the
> batteries
> during the day? Or would it be more cost efficient just to convert a car
> to
> burn natural gas and forego electric altogether?
> --
> View this message in context:
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see

If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:47:29 +0000
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 123 batteries
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Content-Type: text/plain

Ooooooo, cylindrical------that reminds me of the good old days when Killacycle 
was powered by the old D-cell looking cells (Boulder cells?) in PVC pipe and it 
looked like it was a bike bomb at Woodburn....

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> I have held one of these prototypes in my hands. :-) 
> A123Systems has a "lot of irons in the fire". These very powerful 
> VOLT style prismatic cells could quite possibly end up in the planned 
> "MegaWatt" version of the KillaCycle. They also have some very 
> powerful cylindrical cells that we may decide to use. All of these 
> are in prototype and not in full production, so the availability will 
> also be a major factor in what actually ends up in the bike. 
> Bill Dube' 
> At 09:41 PM 12/5/2007, you wrote: 
> >Just received this today: 
> >On December 2 at EVS23, A123Systems publicly unveiled the lithium ion 
> >battery cell that they have co-developed with GM specifically for the 
> >Volt. It is a flat "prismatic" cell that is significantly larger than 
> >the cylindrical cells that we are used to seeing from A123. The cell 
> >is rectangular, and is designed to be stacked within the pack like 
> >slices of bread. GM chose a stackable, space-efficient battery format 
> >for the Volt so as to minimize the volume of the pack. 
> > 
> >Exact specifications of the cell have not been released. 
> > 
> >According to A123 engineers at the event, they have also developed 
> >proprietary algorithms that can precisely monitor their battery 
> >technology's voltage and state of charge - thus eliminating concerns 
> >that the battery could suddenly drain completely empty without 
> >warning. They developed this software as a part of their hybrid 
> >electric bus program, which is independent of their collaboration with 
> >GM. 
> > 
> >GM's Denise Gray has stated in the past that they are developing their 
> >own battery management software "in-house", so it is unclear if A123's 
> >software will be shared as a part of the Volt program. 
> > 
> >Will the Killacycle get these? 
> > 
> >-- 
> > 
> > 
> >Storm 
> > 
> >_______________________________________________ 
> >For subscription options, see 
> > 
> _______________________________________________ 
> For subscription options, see 


Message: 4
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:53:04 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trying to decide
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dominant wrote:
> shortening their lives, so maybe something like a LionEV pack would 
> be better suited ( 
> ), which are 
> both cheaper and come with a BMS.
Wow, I had not heard of LionEV, but those prices are... reasonable.

With Thunder Sky cells going for $2/Ah ($625/KWh, no BMS) and LionEV 
cells for $510/KWh (including BMS!!), I wonder why anyone is talking 
about Thunder Sky at all.

If I can truly get 2000 cycles on a 20KWh pack for $12K, my plans might 
be back on the table.  If my cycles are 50 miles, that's 12 cents per 
mile.  But 50 miles would not be 100% DOD (unless it's at a constant 
70mph), so a pack should get much more than that.  I'm spending 8 cents 
per mile for gasoline right now, and that's not looking to go down.

So... Thanks for the link.


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End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 21

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