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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: We're all bozos on this EV-bus (henry buehler)
   2. Re: Promting EV's & Sharing What I have (gottdi)
   3. Re: another one done RAH! (Lee Hart)
   4. Re: Synchronous-induction hybrid motor? (Lee Hart)
   5. Re: Promting EV's & Sharing What I have (Don Davidson)
   6. What are trolls? (Tommey Reed) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   7. Re: Synchronous-induction hybrid motor? (Jeff Shanab)
   8. Talkers and Doers (Mike Chancey)
   9. Re: Variable phase AC motor ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  10. Re: Synchronous-induction hybrid motor? (Seppo Lindborg)
  11. SUV/Truck debates (Marvin Campbell)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 12:00:44 -0600
From: "henry buehler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] We're all bozos on this EV-bus
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 Chicago there are fuel cell powered bus, refueling has proven slow and too
much of a problem for vehicals to still be in use, and hybrid eletric bus
with faulty capacitors and problem operating at low temperture. either needs
redesign to work as battery powered public transportation.
What would you need for me to do for this to be done ?
I do appreciate that Wayne has got it together.

On 12/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <<< If he may come off with not the best bed side manner it may
> be because the list has been getting so full of BS, trolls, and gerbils
> lately that it is hard to find any real information. All talk and no
> building. Wayne is making a difference in the world whether you like his
> demeanor or not!
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> PS: I don't come across so well either at times! >>>
>
> Hey, I'm no builder - I know my limitations -> I'm an "end-user"!
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:05:29 -0800 (PST)
From: gottdi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Promting EV's & Sharing What I have
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Went to have a look at your photos and downloaded one of the pdf's. I did not
realize that Bradley came as a custom EV kit. Sweet. I am going to pour over
this new information. 

Thanks
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Promting-EV%27s---Sharing-What-I-have-tp14241094s25542p14241348.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:38:54 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I have had several conversations with Wayne and he has always been
> very friendly and open... The bottom line is that he is producing an
> affordable EV that he sells for not much more than what most people
> pay for their parts... If he may come off with not the best bed side
> manner it may be because the list has been getting so full of BS,
> trolls, and gerbils lately that it is hard to find any real
> information. All talk and no building. Wayne is making a difference
> in the world whether you like his demeanor or not!

Well put, Rod!

I've also talked to Wayne and Sharon, and find them to be sincere, hard 
working people who really are getting things done and making a 
difference. They may not be great socialites, but they are great builders!

To some people, the EV list is a working group, where you find the 
information needed to move your project forward. To others, it's a news 
bureau to find out what's new. Still others take it as a sports bar 
where you meet friends and exchange banter.

It's all coming to you on the same "channel". You have to learn to tune 
out the programs you aren't interested in. The Delete key is your 
friend! :-)
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:49:57 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Synchronous-induction hybrid motor?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bill Dube wrote:
> With an inverter, you control the frequency. Thus, there is no need 
> for the induction operation.

In theory this is possible. In practice, it can be very difficult to get 
it right. Synchronous (and their close cousins, brushless DC) motors can 
have serious noise, vibration, and cogging issues at startup. Toyota did 
a marvelous job on the Prius, but you can still hear and feel the 
cogging at low speeds and high torque situations.

Induction motor operation is a simpler way to solve these problems. It 
doesn't require that you apply the perfect frequency and current to each 
phase; it only requires that you be close.

> Slip-ring wound-rotor synchronous motors may well be an advantage on 
> the drag strip, but you would not operate them in induction mode with 
> an inverter.

You well might, because it's too complicated to get the drive waveforms 
perfect on a one-of-a-kind vehicle on a limited budget. If a synchronous 
motor loses sync, it abruptly loses torque!
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:29:45 -0500
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Promting EV's & Sharing What I have
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks. Glad I could help.

Don Davidson


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gottdi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Promting EV's & Sharing What I have


>
> Went to have a look at your photos and downloaded one of the pdf's. I did 
> not
> realize that Bradley came as a custom EV kit. Sweet. I am going to pour 
> over
> this new information.
>
> Thanks
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Promting-EV%27s---Sharing-What-I-have-tp14241094s25542p14241348.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:48:59 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] What are trolls? (Tommey Reed)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Before you call someone a troll, ask your self who.
Is it because of the energy I say you waste or just the truth about EV?
Nobody will answer the facts about EV!
When someone says that they get 30-40 miles to a charge just how much energy 
did you use?
When you convert in to a EV, you have to remove the engine and parts that's 
about 600 lb. Then what does not make sense is you add 1200+ lb with batteries, 
motor and controllers.
I'm sorry but you call this smart conversion?

The Evette that Tom Sines built was the smart way to make an electric car where 
the frame is the batteries, I don't even want to drive my EV because of the 
energy it use this is why there has to be a better way.
Just keep talking crap about EV, but ask your self's is it the only way?



________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - 
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aimcmp00050000000001


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:54:37 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Synchronous-induction hybrid motor?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I wonder if this is an implementation of a motor one of the universities
did a while back.
The magnets were buiried in the rotor in such a way as to not be
effected by the high freq slip but able to run syncronous when the load
dropped.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:28:21 -0600
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Talkers and Doers
To: EVDL <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

There has been a lot of bandwidth wasted lately on discussions that 
don't do anything about putting the rubber on the road.  Some seem to 
find this appropriate, I don't.

To me it all boils down to this.  If you build an EV or something that 
is part of an EV and big enough to do the job on an EV you have my 
attention.  If you build something that might be a model of something 
that might work if scaled up, then congratulations you have built a 
model.  Scale it up, use it to make an EV go and I will be impressed. 
Drive it in the rain, drive it in the snow, just drive it to work, and I 
will be impressed.  If you come up with something and you think it does 
something that others say is wrong, prove you're right by making it do 
actual work.  Use it to drive an EV, golf cart, go kart, bicycle, 
something big enough for a person.

Sure my EV conversion is made from off-the-shelf parts.  My project 
hauls me to work and back every day.  It impresses folks at displays. 
It gets comments on the net. It is inspected, licensed, and insured, and 
on the street.  Until you have done one, your opinion of mine really 
isn't very important to me.

Don't slam the folks who can make it work unless you have done something 
that can actually do better.  Even then you should be trying to guide 
them not insult them.

I may not have been born here, but I have been here for 13 years so I 
can say I am from Missouri.

Show me.

-- 
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.evdl.org

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme 
position. (Horace)



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:35:16 -0800 (PST)
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Variable phase AC motor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I've played with 3 phase variable frequency motors and controllers.
  I think 3 phase would be tri-polar (?), 
  There may be some efficiency gain in a 6, 12, 24 pole field.
  I don't see much of a reduction in mechanical gears or the like.
   
  Most 3 phase motors do not have a separate start winding as non shaded pole 
single phase motors do. 
  The problem with using the start winding for an additional power boost with a 
single phase motor is heat and destruction. 
  These start windings were meant for momentary high torque starting use and 
most are not able to withstand much addition energized time. 
   
  Back to 3 phase, I have done phase dropping, where one phase is unpowered 
after the motor is up to speed, phase converters do this to allow 3 phase 
motors to run on single phase, but correct voltage, power. 
  I have used one, two and three leg reverse EMF as a crude regen. 
  Overall speed, torque and HP are affected, so I assume additional multiple 
phase windings to a 6, 12, ?  phase motor would allow variable 
power/torque/E-consumption benefits. 
  Additional weight and control issues offset gains.
  I was using very heavy, non efficient, off the shelf 3 phase motors in my 
early trials.
  These cumbersome motors don't do speed change well, which worked, in effect, 
as a flywheel when using regen to recoup a fraction of the already expended 
energy stored in rotation.
  I did like the control properties, but just not the weight or power use.
  That was years ago, maybe I should look again.
   
  My .02,
  Cruiser
  
Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hey all,

Just thought I'd run an idea past the experts..

Now a three phase motor has three stator windings to create a 
rotating bipolar magnetic field. If your stator had, say, six 
windings, you could rotate a four-pole magnetic field around 
(assuming the motor controller knew what it was doing). Unless 
induction motors operate differently to other motors I'm familiar 
with, running a larger number of poles means you get higher torque 
but lower peak RPM?

So, how about an induction motor with a whole bunch of stator 
windings (say 12), and a controller which was able to drive them with 
a varying number of poles. This would sort of give you the equivalent 
of different gears, but without the complication of any moving parts.

Has this been done? Are there any problems with it? (Does my 
description make sense?)

-Ian

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:25:40 +0100 (CET)
From: Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Synchronous-induction hybrid motor?
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-15"

Check Brusa pages (http://www.brusa.biz/g_datasheets.htm) and look at 
the data sheets for the asynchronous motor (ASM6.17.12_20070414.pdf) 
and the Hybrid-Synchron-Motor (HSM6.17.12_20070414.pdf). You can see 
that the stators look identical but the rotors are different. The 
Hybrid-Synchron-Motor rotor seems to have eight red-and-blue coloured 
rectangles embedded, I would guess that they are permanent magnets.

Seppo


>----Alkuper?inen viesti----
>L?hett?j?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>P?iv?m??r?: 08.12.2007 21:43
>Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>Aihe: Re: [EVDL] Synchronous-induction hybrid motor?
>
>Metric Mind wrote:
>> this hybrid motor is highly salient, basically field weakening is 
achieved by embedding small perm
>> magnets in certain pattern and shape, leaving air gaps.
>> So it's far from synchronous motor which distinctively cogs
>> if you rotate it by hand. Hybrid motor practically doesn't.
>
>Interesting! I would not have expected it to have salient poles. This 
is 
>something normally done only for small motors, because it causes 
>excessive cogging, noise, and vibration at lower speeds.
>
>You also don't normally allow any slip in a PM motor (i.e. it must 
be 
>synchronous), because slip will overheat and demagnetize the 
magnets. 
>Without slip, you have starting problems.
>
>The patent gives the impression that they have movable iron shunts 
on 
>the rotor. In one position, they "short" the magnets, so it behaves 
as 
>an induction motor. In another position, they "unshort" the magnets, 
and 
>it becomes a synchronous motor.
>
>This is a variation of an old motor design that has a rotor about 
twice 
>as long as its stator. One end is a normal squirrel cage induction 
>rotor. The other end is a permanent magnet. When the motor is off, a 
>spring positions the induction rotor inside the stator. When 60 Hz 
power 
>is applied, it starts as an induction motor. But when it comes up 
near 
>synchronous speed, the magnetic rotor pulls inside, being attracted 
by 
>the rotating N and S poles produced by the stator coils. This design 
was 
>used in applications where they need high starting torque and precise 
speed.
>
>The number of ingenious motor designs is unbelievable! It's kind of 
>surprising that we've gotten stuck on such a small number of basic 
designs.
>
>-- 
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.
net
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>





------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:41:26 -0800
From: Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] SUV/Truck debates
To: EV Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

I think a perfect way to sell electromotive technology to all the Billy 
Bobs in middle America- and that's where my roots are- would be a 
drop-in hybrid upgrade to fit all those damn Suburban and Tahoe 
platforms already on the road.

Once Billy and Joe Six-Pack see added performance from electric, 
they'll only want more- because, as you know, in America more is 
better:^O

Next think you know they'll be wanting one of them big trucks that runs 
silent in town, and like a diesel locomotive out on the road.

Silent mode would be real good for spotlighting deer too- if you're 
into that kind of thing:^O

I believe NegGain already has a set-up that piggybacks on an existing 
driveshaft for delivery truck applications, but as it's DC I don't 
believe it's regen capable (yet).

Marv



------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 31
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