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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Water cool an ADC motor? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   2. Re: CEpictures on green car advisor (Ryan Stotts)
   3. Re: Water cool an ADC motor? (Arak Leatham)
   4. Re: Best 10kw Gensets. (spon from WWU EV1 Resurrection. )
      (Arak Leatham)
   5. Re: Aptera not vaporware after all ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   6. Re: Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's (Arak Leatham)
   7. Re: Water cool an ADC motor? (Lee Hart)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0600
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cool an ADC motor?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Trying to turn the rotor at high speed in water is like turning a boat prop.  
It'd be an enormous friction load and suck the high speed efficiency way, way 
down.

If the rotor were perfectly round there would be more laminar flow thus much 
less drag, but still, it'd be quite high.

Danny

---- R Patterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> There's a lot of "ifs" here ... but this might not be a bad idea ... if you
> could seal the motor and drill out the shaft and then drill multiple holes
> radially at an angle in the direction of rotation to act as a pump.  Being
> totally submerged with some turbulent flow you'd probably get some good
> cooling ... you'd only have to worry about at seal at the output end of the
> shaft.  Sounds easy enough.
> 
> Other ideas?
> 
> Ralph.
> 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:50:35 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CEpictures on green car advisor
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

If it's already lifting them at this power level and you are going to
forgo wheelie bars; a 300" wheelbase Top Fuel chassis?  I think it
would handle 15,000  - 20,000 batteries?  Or more?

What's the biggest pack you can envision ever being used?  75,000 or so?

How many Zilla's and how many motors to get into the 4's?

It's amazing what your running though on just one motor.  Don't you
also have an additional "back up motor" that has even more potential
then the one you are currently using?  What might it be capable of?



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:08:02 -0700
From: Arak Leatham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cool an ADC motor?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>,
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


If I understand correctly, you want to immerce the armature or rotor or other 
parts. Not a good idea. 
 
You'll find out quikly that the efficiecy will be low because the heat created 
will be high. It will also make any level of rpm hard to obtain.
 
In other postings ?[overloaded AC motor]? this was discussed at length.
 
Basically the winning cooling system was where fluid was run on the surface, 
but not so much that anything become immerced in a pool. Inside channels or on 
the surface seems to be about the same.
 
However, I'm sure the more contact cooling you get the better. Then an external 
exchanger was nessary similar to what Automatic Tranys need.
 
So yes, if you run fluid into the shaft, through internal ports, then allow it 
to fly against the casing in a catcher or other recess so it doesn't contact 
moving and non-moving parts at the same time. That may work. However, You need 
additional pumping.
 
At the ultimate end of cooling it was claimed that a 10x continuous power 
output at higher RPM and voltages was obtained. I'ld say the spining parts 
better be up to it. 
 
So go seek that thread 'Overloaded' for more info.



 




Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 
09:15:56 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cool an ADC motor?> > There's a 
lot of "ifs" here ... but this might not be a bad idea ... if you> could seal 
the motor and drill out the shaft and then drill multiple holes> radially at an 
angle in the direction of rotation to act as a pump. Being> totally submerged 
with some turbulent flow you'd probably get some good> cooling ... you'd only 
have to worry about at seal at the output end of the> shaft. Sounds easy 
enough.> > Other ideas?> > Ralph.> > On Dec 23, 2007 3:20 AM, GWMobile <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > >> > > Most of the heat is produced in the armature, by 
the windings brushes> > > and commutator. Cooling the outside case will have 
very little effect> > > on> > > them.> > Forget my oil cool ideathen. That's 
what I figured.> >> >> >> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily im!
 ages about hurricanes, globalwarming> > and the melting poles.> >> > 
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> >> > 
_______________________________________________> > For subscription options, 
see> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> >> > > > -- > Victory belongs 
to the most persevering.> --Napoleon Bonaparte--> 
_______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> 
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_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:13:41 -0700
From: Arak Leatham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets. (spon from WWU EV1
        Resurrection. )
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Well, so far I'm finding from the inputs that in the 10kw range, I'm only 
marginally better with something other than a Honda Genset or something equal 
to it.
 
I can find a Honda or equal new for $200 to $500 USD on Ebay and elsewhere.
 
At the balance of power/weight/Efficiency/Cost is there anything out there 
right now I should consider? I have about 3cu ft of space to work with.



 




Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 
12:40:48 -0600> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: 
[EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets. (spon from WWU EV1 Resurrection. )> > The Capstone 
Microturbine is the readily available microturbine right now.> > Its emissions 
are excellent, its noise level is supposed to be reasonable, something like a 
loud box fan rather than a jet engine. It's got a build-in generator head and 
control system. The Hybrid Vehicle version was used for a fleet of hybrid buses 
that were scrapped and some of the turbines went onto the surplus market.> > At 
first it appears to have crazy high efficiency, then you see they're talking 
cogen, heating hot water with the exhaust. Well, I could put an elaborate water 
jacket on any piston engine exhaust and get close to 100% efficiency too! 
Bottom line is it's pretty good efficiency to electrical output, once you 
consider that its figures already include generator head lo!
 sses which might be around 10% or more if you just hooked a generator head up 
to an internal combustion engine to make a series hybrid.> > It appears it 
could make a decent series hybrid, well, it might be a few more mpg at best, or 
maybe a few mpg less than the original vehicle's mpg. It'd be quite a novelty 
to have a turbine vehicle but it's not gonna stun the world with its mpg.> > 
Danny> > ---- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Depends alot on what 
fuel you use, what cycle you use, and what you> > define as pollutants.... alot 
of the microturbines use natural gas> > which tends to burn alot cleaner than 
gasoline -- but is a brayton> > cycle with natural gas cleaner than an otto 
cycle or diesel cycle with> > natural gas? Dunno.> > > > > > On Dec 23, 2007 
1:06 AM, GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > With a micorturbine though 
you are putting out horrible pollution. Kind> > > of defeats purpose of ev's or 
hybrids if you will pollute that much.> > >> >!
  > Remember as a general rule the faster and hotter the combus!
 tion cha
mber> > > dwell time the more pollutants emited.> > 
_______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> 
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:13:42 -0800
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera not vaporware after all
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,        "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

I hate how they layer on a thick techo soundtrack so you can't get a feel
for how noisy it may be when driving it.  I mean, I don't care about the
techno music!  Give me a good feel for the driving experience!

-----Original Message-----
Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has 
folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels but 
they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the 
aptera.

Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.

And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt collisoons 
apparently.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:31:54 -0700
From: Arak Leatham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>,
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


> this issue seems to suffer from the same niche vs mass production 
 
Yes every part of the vehicle I'm interested in suffers from that. It's a 
'tween machine. To big for a Classic Velomobile or Cabinscooter, to small for a 
mini-car. Closer to a micro-car but too different to use those old style parts, 
if I could even find any to suit.
 
I am finding candidate parts in other industries. I just have to find them.
 
AT the moment, motors I want are used on Bikes, or Power tools or even those 
tread mill motors.
Same for the controllers, athough I'm having more issues with cost than 
availablity. What woud work is equal to about 2 or 3 DC Etek motors. And I 
could go with that.
 
The genset likely will be adpted from low cost home power units. I just need to 
adapt it for the voltage required.
 
Trannies used on LawnMowers or ATV seems possible, unless I use one motor for 
each front wheel.
 
My bigest limit seems to be a suitible CV joint. Most all automotive are too 
big except what is on a Zenn. I have no idea where they got thiers, and I'm 
affraid to ask what a Zenn CV assembly would cost.
 
Any ideas on that one?



 




Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 
10:49:49 +0100> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets> > this issue seems to 
suffer from the same niche vs mass production > problem where any available 
products are hard to get, extremely > expensive or non existent. at least 
turbine generators.> maybe a construction generator could be used if small in 
size. maybe > modified a bit to run higher rpm.> maybe you have to make one 
from an efficient turbocharged scooter or > motorcycle motor coupled to a 
rewound alternator or even AC Etek.> > if strained a bit 10kW should be 
possible to do small. doesn't have to > last 100000 km. only once in a while.> 
> Dan> > _______________________________________________> For subscription 
options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
The best games are on Xbox 360.  Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 
Console.
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:58:43 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cool an ADC motor?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

>> Other ideas?

Here's an odd idea. Very high power vacuum tubes (as used in big radio 
and TV transmitters are often water cooled, using a technique called 
vapor phase cooling. Water absorbs a tremendous amount of heat when it 
changes from a liquid to a gas. Basically the "hot" part has liquid 
water on it. The water boils. Steam moves away from it, and condenses on 
a cooler surface somewhere else.

In a motor, you would pipe liquid water to the rotor. The water passes 
through small holes to the outer surface, where it is allowed to boil 
away as steam. The motor case is closed; the steam moves out via hoses 
to a radiator, which cools the steam back to become liquid water, ready 
to pump back in for re-use.

The pressure inside the motor would probalby be less than atmospheric (a 
partial vacuum). This would actually reduce windage losses.

Very pure water is relatively non-conductive; i.e. it doesn't conduct 
enough to matter at the voltages and currents involved. It is also 
relatively non-corrosive, at least in the short term. Brushed motors run 
wet with hardly any detectable effect on performance. You may have to 
coat things better than usual, make brusholders and springs out of 
stainless steel, or have a purge system to remove the water when the 
motor is idle. But, it just might work!
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

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