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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers? (David Hrivnak)
2. Motor current limits (Dan Frederiksen)
3. Re: Reversible air conditioning (GWMobile)
4. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (joe)
5. Re: Aptera not vaporware after all (GWMobile)
6. Hairball Zilla AC Plug In feature (John Mogelnicki)
7. Re: Ceramic Elements...Canadian EV type vs Cheaper Units
(Jeff Shanab)
8. Re: Motor current limits, correction (Dan Frederiksen)
9. What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (Jeff Shanab)
10. PLEASE DO NOT REPLY : Re: JESUS CHRIST!! (EVDL Administrator)
11. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (Bob Rice)
12. Re: Hairball Zilla AC Plug In feature (Roland Wiench)
13. Re: DC/DC 288v to 12v (Jeff Shanab)
14. Re: DC/DC 288v to 12v (( Phil ))
15. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (( Phil ))
16. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
(Kip C. Anderson)
17. Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
18. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
(Kip C. Anderson)
19. Re: Ceramic Elements...Canadian EV type vs Cheaper Units
(EVDL Administrator)
20. Re: Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07? (lyle sloan)
21. Re: Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07? (John Wayland)
22. Re: JESUS CHRIST!! (Loni)
23. Re: Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07? (keith vansickle)
24. you people are gay (gulabrao ingle)
25. Re: DC/DC 288v to 12v (Rick Beebe)
26. Re: DC/DC 288v to 12v (Zeke Yewdall)
27. Re: Safety (David Hrivnak)
28. Re: you people are gay (Travis Gintz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 07:01:25 -0500
From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I had several people ask about price and I was hoping to see the 4 of them
for $200 shipping included or one off for $55 again with shipping. I hope
you all have a very Merry Christmas and I hpe I too can have that EV grin on
January the 4th as that is when we attempt to install the motor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?
Hi,
I saw your message and might be interested. What are you asking for them?
Rick Prentiss
-------------- Original message from "David Hrivnak"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: --------------
> In my hybrid conversion I tried to use Soneil 1214S chargers and we
believe
> the heat under the hood was too much for them. I had 4 out of 6 fail but
> due to some replacements I have 4 in working order. I was seeing if anyone
> in the group may want to buy them before I move them to e-bay. I live in
> Kingsport TN and can easily ship them in the USA. They are 7A 12V chargers
> and you can find details here.
> http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1214S(Rev01).042904.pdf While I
> cannot "guarantee" them if by chance one or more fail on you in a year I
> will refund the money for them as there is a chance I may have stressed
some
> of the chargers. Let me know off line [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you may be
> interested. Thank you
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:38:22 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Motor current limits
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I just did some calculations on heat build up in the wires of the
Chinese motors based on the given wire thickness.
the 35mm2 wire would take around 26 seconds to go from 20 Celsius ('room
temp') to 150 Celsius insulation limit at 1000A. (assuming no cooling at
all or heat transfer to the rest of the motor)
at 1000A their small motor ZC5-48 at 41kg would develop and uncharted
but projected torque of 300Nm. at 8000rpm that's 336HP : )
(would require maybe 350V @1000A to accomplish)
11.5seconds to overheat at 1500A.
as you can push the limits of current (by quite a margin) you can
perhaps push the limits of the insulation. it's rated at 150C but might
go a bit further for a short time without disintegration thus giving an
extra margin of performance.
even assuming no heat transfer to the rest of the motor and air it would
take 11 minutes to overheat at 200A
it would appear the motors are quite viable for EV use. should I get to
the motor buying stage I will probably choose such a Chinese motor.
Dan
Was it Berube who said his 11 inch motor doesn't heat up significantly
during a drag? iirc that would appear to verify a hideous short time
power surplus in the motors as long as they remain mechanically intact
and brushes don't quit. we just have to keep it secret from the Ferraris
that it's only a short time power surplus. they wont figure it out on
their own :)
Michaela, this is not just drag considerations. this means normal
driving can do with smaller, cheaper, lighter. :) I don't have a price
for the ZC5 but it must be below 400$
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:13:49 -0500
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reversible air conditioning
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
The aptera uses a heat pump for air conditioning.
>
> If you had all the parts to make a reversible heat pump it would likely
> be far superior.
>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:21:49 -0800
From: "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Try a chain-drive coupling, available at any bearing/power transmission
shop.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
> I've driven a few clutchless cars, Saturn and a Mitsubishi. I prefer the
> clutchless but you do have to wait a second or two for the gears to line
> up,
> and you risk over rev-ing the motor if you forget to take your foot off
> the
> gas pedal... (if you don't have a limiting controller with tach sensor).
>
> I'm looking into motor hub adapters that allow for some flex and can bolt
> to
> the shafts without all the clutchplate/hub/ expense... might as well see
> if
> something in the industrial world can save all of us some money and time.
> Was looking at Rexnord and Lovejoy adapters but haven't found anything
> that
> will work yet.
>
> Until I find that solution....
>
> The clutch plate (springs) also absorb some of the torque backlash that is
> driven backwards through the powertrain when your tire hits a bump,
> pothole,
> etc.. This torque backlash can hurt your motor and transmission, etc....
>
> If you ditch the use of your clutch, make sure you have another way to
> dampen / absorb these torque backlashes.... one alternative is to get rid
> of
> the flywheel and spring plate, but keep the clutch plate for a few
> reasons:
> 1) It already has the spline interface to the transmission shaft. you can
> remove the material on the outer edge to lighten the part further, but the
> plate if relatively light to start with.
> 2) If you drive it from the outer edge, via a light aluminum plate, the
> springs on the clutchplate will absorb these torque backlashes,
> vibrations,
> etc.... I think EV America's sells adapters for this, I'm still waiting
> for
> them to answer my questions.
> 3) If the motor shaft and trans input shaft are not 100% dead on center,
> (due to a homemade adaptor plate or one that's just slightly off center
> due
> to old tooling) the clutchplate will act as a flexplate to absorb some of
> the off angle drive... otherwise you'll be vibrating the car until things
> fall apart.
>
> Also, the bell housing and the adapter plate are probably needed because
> both the trans and the motor have shafts sticking out of them, so there
> needs to be something to hold them apart and centered. unless you have a
> motor that accepts the trans splines...
>
> These comments are intended for users with DC motors, AC motors have more
> direct drives but still require a flexplate to help with misalignment.
>
> John
>
> On Dec 24, 2007 6:58 PM, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> chuck you are driving down the road your contactors fail or are welded
>> on
>> , for a cheap easy safety switch all you have to do is put in the clutch
>> change to neutral and come to a safe stop . From: Chuck Homic<mailto:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 2:59 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
>>
>>
>> In the midst of other rants on unrelated topics, the subject of using a
>> clutchless setup is often mentioned as a negative. However, I haven't
>> heard any stories of burning out synchros on a clutchless EV. I ask
>> because I'm close to having to make this decision for myself. It sounds
>> like dropping the flywheel loses a lot of rotating mass, and I'm not
>> sure the benefit of shifting in one second instead of three seconds is
>> really worth it. Is there any reason to keep the clutch for a reason
>> other than the alternative "feels dirty?" Thanks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1195 - Release Date:
> 12/24/2007 11:19 AM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:47:51 -0500
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera not vaporware after all
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
That was my thought as well.
Suseptibility to side gusts is usually caused by tall flat sides. The
Aptera has none.
Unless the aptera shape causes some lift on top which is not matched by
the curve shap and "lift" that would be created on the underside (which
I doubt) it should be fine in side winds.
Remember for non flat sided objects + it isn't wind getting "under" it
that causes it to flip , it is wind going over a top curved surface when
a similiar curved surface does not exist on the bottom. The UNBALANCED
top lift from the curved surface on top thus forms a wing which lifts
the vehicle off the road. That's why nascar racers used to flip even
though they have virtually no air going under them. Later nascar
introduced flip up spoilers on the roofs to break the wing shape and get
rid of the top lift when spinning and now nascar racers rarely flip
unless their TIRES grab sideways.
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:15 am, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> I suspect the aerodynamics of the vehicle allows the wind to slide
> around
> it rather than blow it around. I saw a freeway run where is was being
> video
> taped while going down freeway. The tracking car was being buffeted by
> semi's passing it but the Aptera was rock steady. However I do not a
> personal driving experience to verify it.
>
> On Dec 24, 2007 1:53 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not too concerned about its cornering or performance in slush...
>> what
>> would concern me is a heavy side gust in a windstorm. With a light
>> vehicle
>> and ample space for wind to go under it, that seems like being picked
>> up and
>> toppled could be a concern. With the local-only EV version, one
>> could just
>> say fine don't take it out on those once-or-twice-a-year bad times.
>> If
>> you're at work, have a friend drive you home, take the bus, or call a
>> cab.
>> With the long-distance version that might be harder to exclude. Once
>> you're 200 miles from home and the wind starts kicking up your
>> options are
>> more limited. But I'd not jump to the conclusion that it's all that
>> vulnerable to wind gusts.
>>
>> I bet that if it did make it onto the market, someone would indeed
>> start
>> trying to make a bolt-up set of wing for it. Given its fairly low
>> weight
>> and exceptionally low drag, it would be quite conceivable that with
>> one of
>> the newer high power density engines it could easily fly, at least on
>> paper.
>> Use the drivewheels for the initial acceleration down the runway
>> then rely
>> on the prop once the weight unloads off them. Short takeoff!
>>
>>
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has
>> > > folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four
>> wheels
>> > > but
>> > > they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the
>> > > aptera.
>> > >
>> > > Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.
>> > >
>> > > And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt
>> collisoons
>> > > apparently.
>> >
>> >
>> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>> globalwarming
>> > and the melting poles.
>> >
>> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:06:27 -0500
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Hairball Zilla AC Plug In feature
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Merry Christmas!
Is anyone using the AC Plug In feature on your hairball / Zilla?
I don't think it's required but may be good for the hairball/Zilla to know
that I'm charging the car.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 07:17:47 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Elements...Canadian EV type vs Cheaper
Units
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I havent looked at the one I have but I would guess it is a simple
bimetallic contact breaking the AC to the element.
This of course can't be used directly in DC but instead would have to be
routed thru the low voltage control circuit you/we construct.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:21:01 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor current limits, correction
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
the data should be accurate except for the weight. because of the
confusing naming convention it was not a small motor weighing 41kg but
65kg.
the price is 390$ wholesale and 486$ sample (that's the first mention of
a sample pricing policy but what can you do..)
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 07:47:51 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
clutched
Can disconnect motor in emergency, "Full Power EVent", blowing up
motor but saving a pedestrians life.
Allows you to shift transmissions that are not as forgiving (or are
worn) as others.
smoother and faster shift, though not that much faster without
special measures. There is no compression braking, the electric motor
doesn't reduce in rpm very fast.
Standard parts get used in the connection
clutchless
less parts, but custom.
longer shift times, impossible on some transmissions.
locked in. Can't diagnose noise problem for example by pressing in
on clutch and coasting or lightly pressing throttle.
Cant rotate motor by hand to inspect commutator without jacking up.
If you have a really good, safety minded controller like the Zilla, the
need for the emergency disconnect is reduced.
If you have to shift a lot because the gearing falls right outside the
power band or over rpm is a potential problem, then the clutch can make
your life easier and reduce wear on tranny.
If you have a tranny with poor syncros you need the clutch, if not you
have a choice. I couldn't drive mine before conversion so I put in the
clutch.
All this is gathered from discussions, my EV is the worst of both
worlds. I have a 5-1/4 triple plate Tilton clutch. metal on metal
without any springs. It cannot be slipped at all and it is up to me to
match rpms or the drive line rings like a bell. I have tried shifting
without the clutch and it is hard on the tranny, and very in-consistent.
Before I blew up the motor, I used to drive in 3rd all the time and only
used second to make impressive launch. now I start in second and shift
to third at every single light to keep the amps down.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:06:34 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] PLEASE DO NOT REPLY : Re: JESUS CHRIST!!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
This subject is off topic and entirely unacceptable for this list.
Discussions of partisan politics and religion are best relegated to the
campaign headquarters and your church / synagogue / temple of choice
respectively. They are not acceptable here.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:53:51 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi EVerybody;
Clutch/clutchless? This is an old one that surfaces now an' again. Bob
Batson's argument sounds interesting. Hoping somebody can debunk or prove
it? I think it depends on WHAT particular tranny you're running. For
Instance; VW? Forgetabout it! They are hard enough to shift and select gears
in GOOD, stock, form. They are so sloppy and vague, what with all the
crappy, wear points plastic bushings and Mickey Mouse afterthought linkages?
Now a "top Loader" type Ford or Chevy, or EVen Nissan, with their crisp gear
selections. another story. I'll bet Dave Oliveria's Ranger clicks easily
through it's clutchless gears? Right Dave?
But for alota cars it's SO nice to click through the gears without having
your silent motor to wind down or up to get another gear.Most all of us are
used to standard trannys from our deformative years?Also the clutch cushions
the drive train by slipping a bit, during torque moments, protecting the
drive train from outragious torque.AND as a Safety thing IF yur controller
locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT happen, but they say it does? Of
course IF you don't shut it down by opening your line switch, you will be
shipping yur motor out to Jerry at Warfield Electric, or to Jim, at Hy
Torque 'lectric. He'll jack it up, the name plate, and slip a new motor
under<g>!But that's better than running over a few slower pedestrians. Can't
let Darwin's law apply, here.
On my last teardown on my Rabbit drive train, I had my machinist guy go
at the flywheel, in a lathe, went from 14 lbs to 6, talk about weight loss!
If WE could take it off like that, too?! There is fat in ICE flywheels as
used stock, after all they are FLY wheels Duh! Supposed to smooth out
archaic gas engines. All WE need them for is to be able to squeeze a clutch
plate between, IF we could make the whole outfit out of Obtanium, from the
crashed Roswel Flying Saucer metal at one half gram<g>?Be nice, or go to
the racing flywhhels of aluminum.
I'm 'ole fashioned, like my clutch, and slip it ice-ly while manuvering
,to spin up the Power Steering pump, for the nice assist while parking, or
whatEVer.If you have a separate motor for all that stuff, it's another
story.
Personal choice here, aftrer all, conversions aren't perfection! Get OUT
there, get it on the road! Coke/Pepsi, Train /Plane, Studebaker/Huppmobile,
Chevy/Ford. Victrola/ I-Pod<g>! Yur call!
Merri Christ Mess!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Homic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:09:48 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hairball Zilla AC Plug In feature
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello John,
My Zilla does not have this feature yet. Nothing was said about this feature
back in 2002, I assume it was either that the motor controller would not
activated while the charger was on or something else.
Anyway, I remember that Otmar told me that the negative of the battery pack
goes right to the motor controller, goes to some type of shunt and then to
the motor.
I therefore added another contactor on my battery pack, so I now have a
positive and negative safety contactor that is only activated by the
ignition switch on position and than the ignition start position activates
the main contactor.
This method of using two safety contactors, completely isolates the battery
charger from the controller circuit. When I had only one safety contactor,
I could read full battery voltage from any battery post to the frame of the
vehicle, even if I had the batteries isolated from the EV body in a
fiberglass box.
While I was charging the battery, the battery charging current would flow on
the negative battery cable to the controller and to the motor and conducting
through the brush dust off the commentator down to the motor shaft, back
through the transmission, to the driveline, to the differential which is
grounded to the frame.
Disconnecting the battery pack negative and placing the PFC battery charger
in a fiberglass compartment and using a heavy duty industrial isolated AC
plug in connection solve this problem while charging on a insulated floor.
I never charge my EV outside in the rain while standing in a puddle.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Hairball Zilla AC Plug In feature
> Merry Christmas!
>
> Is anyone using the AC Plug In feature on your hairball / Zilla?
>
> I don't think it's required but may be good for the hairball/Zilla to know
> that I'm charging the car.
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:18:19 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC/DC 288v to 12v
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
IOTA dc wiring
It has a standard 3 wire plug on it, like a PC power supply. Pack plus
went to one of the wires(white or blue) and pack - to the other(black or
brown). I left the ground(green) disconnected as I didn't want to
reference the pack to the body.
Typical 220 house wiring has 4 wires
2 out of phase power wires it is 220 between them.
1 neutral that you could use with 1 of the above power wires if you
only wanted 110V
and a ground which, to be honest, is connected to the exact same
spot in the power panel as the neutral (unless it is GFI)
Your whole house is wired this way, half the 110 circuits are on one
side and 1/2 are on the other side of the incoming 220
(which has 3 wires, 2 hots and a neutral, the 4th ground wire is added
at the panel and connected to earth along with the incoming neutral.
lottsa redundancy)
I have taken 2 110V extension cords wired into a 220 plug when I needed
temporary 220. I was working on a house and had a 220 table saw. a
little trial and error to find to 110V circuits not on the same side.
This just gave me an idea. It would be easy for me to change a circuit
in my hose to 220 at the panel and change the plugs doubling the output
to the charger for a plug without re-wiring. (I bought a new house and
they really skimped on the 110V wiring. I wasn't watching close enough,
all #14 for the 110v circuits and way to many things per circuit.)
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:19:39 -0800
From: "( Phil )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC/DC 288v to 12v
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
The Neutral is not used in the normal application. You connect traction (-)
and (+) to the line inputs, polarity is not a concern. AC ground is
connected to the cars chassis ground and the converters.
-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC/DC 288v to 12v
> Jeff,
> How is it wired?
> The 220volt AC line has 4 wires, 2 "hot", 1 neutral, 1 ground.
> I assume you feed the 288v DC Positive to one (or both?) of the Hot
> inputs,
> and the negative 288v to the neutral line (and ground? since in a house
> they
> are the same).
> Thanks,
> John
>
> On Dec 24, 2007 11:25 PM, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> That is my exact setup. I have left it connected since I installed it
>> even trhu an equalization cycle to 390V (oops)(remember 24 AGMs to 14.77
>> is 354V)
>> It does sag more than I would like when I get everything going, I need
>> to wire the boost plug to the ignition relay.
>> This is a nice dc-dc, it goes to sleep basically when the battery is
>> charged (I do have an aux battery) and the fan slows or stops.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:22:58 -0800
From: "( Phil )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
You can always shift into neutral. You do not need to be in gear, thus you
can rotate the motor with the wheels on the ground.
-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
> clutched
> Can disconnect motor in emergency, "Full Power EVent", blowing up
> motor but saving a pedestrians life.
> Allows you to shift transmissions that are not as forgiving (or are
> worn) as others.
> smoother and faster shift, though not that much faster without
> special measures. There is no compression braking, the electric motor
> doesn't reduce in rpm very fast.
> Standard parts get used in the connection
>
> clutchless
> less parts, but custom.
> longer shift times, impossible on some transmissions.
> locked in. Can't diagnose noise problem for example by pressing in
> on clutch and coasting or lightly pressing throttle.
> Cant rotate motor by hand to inspect commutator without jacking up.
>
>
>
> If you have a really good, safety minded controller like the Zilla, the
> need for the emergency disconnect is reduced.
> If you have to shift a lot because the gearing falls right outside the
> power band or over rpm is a potential problem, then the clutch can make
> your life easier and reduce wear on tranny.
>
> If you have a tranny with poor syncros you need the clutch, if not you
> have a choice. I couldn't drive mine before conversion so I put in the
> clutch.
>
>
> All this is gathered from discussions, my EV is the worst of both
> worlds. I have a 5-1/4 triple plate Tilton clutch. metal on metal
> without any springs. It cannot be slipped at all and it is up to me to
> match rpms or the drive line rings like a bell. I have tried shifting
> without the clutch and it is hard on the tranny, and very in-consistent.
> Before I blew up the motor, I used to drive in 3rd all the time and only
> used second to make impressive launch. now I start in second and shift
> to third at every single light to keep the amps down.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:15:13 -0800
From: "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Point well made.
I think the best way to consider this issue relies on figuring out if one
needs more than a single gear. Most likely, anybody planning on use over 40
mph is going to have to shift at least once to get there - and again when
slowed.
I don't see anything wrong however with going clutchless on a vehicle that
is essentially a NEV with few or very slight hills to tackle. Although
useage more demanding than that would likely have one wishing for a clutch
in short order. It's essentially a sacrifice of dynamic adaptability.
I.e., a car without tires might do very well on rail road tracks, but not
anywhere else.
Personally, I will probably do a clutchless install, but my car will likely
never leave 2nd gear or see >40 mph or any kind of a grade greater than a
minor overpass.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
> I personally have been starting to view the clutchless versus clutch
> controversy to be a religious venue and as such I have tried to stay out
> it.
> I do tech support for a major EV parts supplier and I hear it all.
>
> This week I had a guy that wanted to do his big rig as an electric. He
> wanted solar panels on the top and a wind generator on the front. For a
> while I tried my best to explain to him some basic laws of physics. I also
> tried to get him to understand where the energy came from that made the
> vehicle go down the road but he did not understand the concept. You
> eventually throw your hands up in the air, metaphorically, and you say:
> "You
> know what, you should go do it, go build that! You may be on to
> something!"
>
> This is what I want to say to the clutchless crowd. Yes it works and it
> works for gas cars as well. Is it convenient?, of course not. I once drove
> a
> tireless car for several weeks. It worked quite well, although on the dirt
> roads I lived on the shreds of leftover tire and the steel rim grinding
> the
> gravel left an incredible smoke screen of dust. This slight inconvenience
> did not alter the fact that cars do not need tires! Some may argue that
> they
> are necessary for safety. Trains do not use tires. Trains have a lot less
> rolling resistance. Obviously the whole tire thing is a conspiracy to get
> us
> to buy rubber :-)
>
> I have driven gasoline cars without clutches. Mostly when I was a gasoline
> mechanic and I had to drive my customers car to my shop without a clutch.
> It
> seems that there are many people who do not know how to drive a gas car
> without a clutch. It is all a matter of your own personal religion. You be
> the judge of your own reality.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date:
> 12/25/2007 12:18 PM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:32:38 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I will attempt to run deep into the 7s in Tucson Dec.30/31.I added a little
weight to the front end so I can steer the beast to the finish line. We also
added a taller and wider tire to hook up a little more power. I envision tuning
the zilla to 70% next weekend. Its the last race of the year and my last
chance to run 7s in 07. Projected weather cold, cloudy and windy. My 1st day
and
possible only race day will be Sunday, if we do not break the record we will
race on Monday also. A German and PBS film crew will also be there to document
the record. Dennis Berube
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 08:39:00 -0800
From: "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
But don't forget Darin's solution on the Forkenswift with clutch pedal
activated power disconnect. It's a complete physical break of the
connection by simply stepping on the clutch pedal.
I think that solves the safety issue of welded contacts etc. very well. The
same setup could probably also be rigged to re-engage the connectors with a
simple return spring. Coupled with a driver accessible breaker, you have
your momentary panic switch and the ability to lock power out if necessary -
and no risk of rpm fragging the motor. Even so, the idea of being locked
into gear is still a bit of a fallacy if the shifter mechanism is retained,
since one could just pop it out of gear - although that's not going to be
the knee-jerk reaction for most people, vs. the clutch pedal which is.
- Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
> clutched
> Can disconnect motor in emergency, "Full Power EVent", blowing up
> motor but saving a pedestrians life.
> Allows you to shift transmissions that are not as forgiving (or are
> worn) as others.
> smoother and faster shift, though not that much faster without
> special measures. There is no compression braking, the electric motor
> doesn't reduce in rpm very fast.
> Standard parts get used in the connection
>
> clutchless
> less parts, but custom.
> longer shift times, impossible on some transmissions.
> locked in. Can't diagnose noise problem for example by pressing in
> on clutch and coasting or lightly pressing throttle.
> Cant rotate motor by hand to inspect commutator without jacking up.
>
>
>
> If you have a really good, safety minded controller like the Zilla, the
> need for the emergency disconnect is reduced.
> If you have to shift a lot because the gearing falls right outside the
> power band or over rpm is a potential problem, then the clutch can make
> your life easier and reduce wear on tranny.
>
> If you have a tranny with poor syncros you need the clutch, if not you
> have a choice. I couldn't drive mine before conversion so I put in the
> clutch.
>
>
> All this is gathered from discussions, my EV is the worst of both
> worlds. I have a 5-1/4 triple plate Tilton clutch. metal on metal
> without any springs. It cannot be slipped at all and it is up to me to
> match rpms or the drive line rings like a bell. I have tried shifting
> without the clutch and it is hard on the tranny, and very in-consistent.
> Before I blew up the motor, I used to drive in 3rd all the time and only
> used second to make impressive launch. now I start in second and shift
> to third at every single light to keep the amps down.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date:
> 12/25/2007 12:18 PM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:00:31 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Elements...Canadian EV type vs Cheaper
Units
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 24 Dec 2007 at 12:29, Roland Wiench wrote:
> A 1500 watt heater on 96 volts will be about 1200 watts at about 12 amps.
If you mean a 1500W, 120v heater, on 96 volts it will consume 960 Watts, not
1200 Watts.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:14:57 -0800 (PST)
From: lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
GOOD LUCK!! THAT IS A GOOD WAY TO BRING IN THE NEW
YEAR.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I will attempt to run deep into the 7s in Tucson
> Dec.30/31.I added a little
> weight to the front end so I can steer the beast to
> the finish line. We also
> added a taller and wider tire to hook up a little
> more power. I envision tuning
> the zilla to 70% next weekend. Its the last race of
> the year and my last
> chance to run 7s in 07. Projected weather cold,
> cloudy and windy. My 1st day and
> possible only race day will be Sunday, if we do not
> break the record we will
> race on Monday also. A German and PBS film crew will
> also be there to document
> the record. Dennis
> Berube
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:24:45 -0800
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hello to Dennis and All,
I can't tell you how glad I am to hear you once again, talking about
bettering your ETs! I predict a 7.65 @ 165 mph.
See Ya....John Wayland
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I will attempt to run deep into the 7s in Tucson Dec.30/31.I added a little
>weight to the front end so I can steer the beast to the finish line. We also
>added a taller and wider tire to hook up a little more power. I envision
>tuning
>the zilla to 70% next weekend. Its the last race of the year and my last
>chance to run 7s in 07. Projected weather cold, cloudy and windy. My 1st day
>and
>possible only race day will be Sunday, if we do not break the record we will
>race on Monday also. A German and PBS film crew will also be there to document
>the record. Dennis Berube
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:42:39 -0800
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] JESUS CHRIST!!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
> don't forget :)
> john 14:6 is the definition if you are curious.
> I have a simple logical proof that the spiritual is real and by
> implication evolution is not if case you want to _know_. ask me
I once only suspected - but now I know - that I am Wonko the Sane.
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:46:35 -0800 (PST)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current Eliminator Dragster 7s in 07?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
What is the name of the drag strip?
I missed Bills run at Pomona but will not miss this
one
see you there
kEVs
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I will attempt to run deep into the 7s in Tucson
> Dec.30/31.I added a little
> weight to the front end so I can steer the beast to
> the finish line. We also
> added a taller and wider tire to hook up a little
> more power. I envision tuning
> the zilla to 70% next weekend. Its the last race of
> the year and my last
> chance to run 7s in 07. Projected weather cold,
> cloudy and windy. My 1st day and
> possible only race day will be Sunday, if we do not
> break the record we will
> race on Monday also. A German and PBS film crew will
> also be there to document
> the record. Dennis
> Berube
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:50:43 -0800
From: "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] you people are gay
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
you are a bunch of jobless homosexuals
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:20:53 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC/DC 288v to 12v
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> This just gave me an idea. It would be easy for me to change a circuit
> in my hose to 220 at the panel and change the plugs doubling the output
> to the charger for a plug without re-wiring. (I bought a new house and
> they really skimped on the 110V wiring. I wasn't watching close enough,
> all #14 for the 110v circuits and way to many things per circuit.)
#14 is fine for 110v 15amp circuits, which are the norm for lighting and
room outlets. Any 20amp circuits (most kitchen) had better be #12 or
you're in code violation.
You can easily up the voltage (assuming you have a free breaker slot in
the panel) but make sure it's a dedicated circuit. You really don't want
220 coming out of the outlets in your living room. <g>
--Rick
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:29:44 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC/DC 288v to 12v
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Dec 25, 2007 11:20 AM, Rick Beebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You can easily up the voltage (assuming you have a free breaker slot in
> the panel) but make sure it's a dedicated circuit. You really don't want
> 220 coming out of the outlets in your living room. <g>
>
> --Rick
>
>
You could put in a 20 amp 240volt outlet for the car -- that way there
isn't the possibility of accidentally plugging in a 115vac appliance.
Also, to better meet code (and to prevent confusion 10 years from now
when someone is trying to figure out what the heck you did, you should
mark the white wire with red tap on both ends, to indicate that it's
no longer a grounded wire.
Z
------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:46:54 -0500
From: David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Safety
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Someone recently had a video discussed here where the clutch cable pulled the
high power contacts apart as an emergency disconnect. It was a very nice
setup. For me I have a contactor with a cut off solenoid that I activate from
the dash.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:25 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Subject: [EVDL] Safety
I'm considering having a setup where the motor wire is disconnected when
the clutch pedal is fully depressed as well as a battery wire disconnect
when the handbrake is pulled.
has anyone considered done this? has anyone needed it? and what was the
problem
is this kind of information compiled somewhere? all the technical
hurdles aside safety seems to be worth the effort. lest it be a death wish
Dan
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
der: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Chzlrs: 0
chuck you are driving down the road your contactors fail or are welded on ,
for a cheap easy safety switch all you have to do is put in the clutch change
to neutral and come to a safe stop . From: Chuck Homic<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
In the midst of other rants on unrelated topics, the subject of using a
clutchless setup is often mentioned as a negative. However, I haven't
heard any stories of burning out synchros on a clutchless EV. I ask
because I'm close to having to make this decision for myself. It sounds
like dropping the flywheel loses a lot of rotating mass, and I'm not
sure the benefit of shifting in one second instead of three seconds is
really worth it. Is there any reason to keep the clutch for a reason
other than the alternative "feels dirty?" Thanks.
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 28
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:12:31 -0800
From: "Travis Gintz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] you people are gay
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
And merry christmas everyone...
On Dec 25, 2007 9:50 AM, gulabrao ingle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you are a bunch of jobless homosexuals
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
EV@lists.sjsu.edu
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 79
*********************************
