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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Low cost controller (Dan Frederiksen)
   2. Icon electric car/Bandit. Anyone in Southern California
      available for a test drive? (Lawrence Rhodes)
   3. Re: Real world performance of home made hybrid?
      (Ev Performance (Robert Chew))
   4. Re: Icon electric car/Bandit. Anyone in Southern California
      available for a test drive? (Bruce Weisenberger)
   5. Re: Real world performance of home made hybrid? (Dan Frederiksen)
   6. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (Jeff Shanab)
   7. nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing
      batteries ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   8. Re: Low cost controller (Morgan LaMoore)
   9. Re: Real world performance of home made hybrid? ((-Phil-))
  10. Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
      existingbatteries ((-Phil-))
  11. Re: ***DHSPAM*** Re: Real world performance of home made
      hybrid? (John Wayland)
  12. Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
      existingbatteries (Morgan LaMoore)
  13. Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing
      batteries (EVDL Administrator)
  14. Re: Re al world performance of home made hybrid?
      (Josh and Jenifer)
  15. Re: Low cost controller (Ed Blackmond)
  16. Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing
      batteries (Dan Frederiksen)
  17. Re: nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing
      batteries (nicklogan)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:45:48 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low cost controller
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

looks like a solid state version of a contactor controller. but my 
immediate reaction is that it's a poor design. each segment would have 
to be able to carry the maximum current rather than just one stage 
carrying it. it would appear he will need 4 times as many transistors 
albeit at lower voltage but voltage doesn't seem to cost as much as 
current. he would also have to balance the pack more and because there 
is only a few stages he can't use that as general bms.
he wont use PWM so he only has 5 throttle levels. you can work around 
that but not exactly elegant I would think.

it also introduces 4 voltage drop losses when charging because it goes 
through the transistors reverse diodes.
not to mention the voltage drop in the forward diodes that allow him to 
use one pack at the time.

not to be harsh, only truthful, I think he allowed himself to get 
carried away by the idea of something special just for the sake of being 
special rather than actually being as good or better.

it's good to question convention though.

Dan


storm connors wrote:
> I stumbled on this. Probably you've seen it before, but it is a
> different approach to controllers. It reminds me of Lee Hart's battery
> balancer concept.
> http://www.redrok.com/ev.htm
>
>   



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:04:50 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Icon electric car/Bandit. Anyone in Southern
        California      available for a test drive?
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

I've gotten plenty of emails.  I am in San Francisco.  If someone can go check 
these out I'd be mighty happy.  I am only interested in paying cash and towing 
one away.  Lawrence Rhodes..



The "ICON" is a 3-wheel tough ALL electric vehicle and registers as cycle

Specifications USES

35HP AC Motor (more power than 65 HP gas) Meter Maid Vehicle (we have police 
lights)

Curtis 550 Amp Controller, latest technology Traffic Control (with police light 
bar)

72 Volt Lithium Battery System Mall Security (with police light bar)

American Manufactured with American parts Industrial hauling 

Aluminum frame and chassis Industrial Security (with light bar)

Street and highway legal, DOT safety windows Recreation (2 or 4 person)

Over 100 miles on a charge, higher at lower speeds Commuter Car (20-cents/day 
operation)

Safe-sliding doors and windows Pizza Delivery (we build stainless rear)

Heater , Air Conditioner, windshield wiper/washer Errand Vehicle

Comex Belt Drive 11:1 transmission Farm hauling

Speeds up to 70MPH (adjusted at plant) Landscape vehicle

3-point seat belts, rear view mirrors, in and out Bullpen cart (baseball)

Lights, turn signals, brake lights, flashers Parks and recreation

Side Safety Lights, back-up lights, beeper Garbage (we build 3-yard dumpster)

Length 11'-6", Width 5-'5", Height 5'-11" Tool Cart

14" Tires, Front tire is SAFE ride flat Colleges, Universities, Schools

Pneumatic disk brakes Hospital Emergency vehicle

Storage: front and back First Aid Vehicle (with light bar) 

All colors and custom painting, lettering Delivery Vehicle

Stereo AM/FM radio/ CD player

Deluxe standard interiors/ Custom, too 

1500# payload, many custom back ends

ALL American parts, available in USA

Inside turning radius: 35"; Outside 112"

72 volt, 110/115 amp charger built in

Tough front and rear bumpers

Vehicle Weight: 1480# (base unit as pictured)

2 passenger cab (can be made for 4)

FULL ONE YEAR WARRANTY.PLUS



CALL 310-213-6501 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:16:17 +1100
From: "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thats exactly what i want to do. Except, i will add the DC motor along the
propshaft section of my datsun 720 truck where it remains straight (the 2nd
prop shaft).

I plan to use now, my exide orbitals (120V) for around town and also to
bring it in for climbing hills. I was going to initially use just a AXE7245
for a 72 volt system for the motor. It could stil go down that way.

Yes, around town you will see a huge difference in mpg. BUt on the highway,
it'll be worse.

I was toying of series hybrids for a bit, but the damn generator sets are
too expensive and too heavy. MIght as well use the engine thas already in
the car.

Because i am putting the motor in line of the propshaft, the motor will
essentially drive the car as if it were in top gear. So huge amps in stall
position. Another idea would be to use those alfa transaxles from the alfa
75's and alfa 90's. They have the gearboxes at the back and the engine at
the front. You could then add the same dc motor along the propshaft and have
the use of all 5 gears which will make more efficient use of the dc motor.
However, you will have to somehow add a clutch mechanism to disconnect the
petrol engine.

Anyway, keep on at it.


On 25/12/2007, Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've done some searching on the interwebs, and aside from 21ponies.com,
> I can't find anyone that's made a homebrew PHEV.  I was thinking of this
> driving home yesterday.  Without going to the trouble of installing a
> diesel powerplant in my car, I could just stick a small series DC motor
> on the end of my crankshaft (ignoring physical size limits), throw 8 or
> so leaddies in the trunk and connect a cheap controller.  Now I've got a
> plug-in hybrid for $2500 plus wires.  You'd think with 100Ah batteries
> (9600 watts in the bank, 4800 at 50%DOD) and a car that "should" use
> 350wh/mile, you could supply half that with electric for 25 miles.  Now
> I wouldn't expect 50mpg out of it, but you'd think my Outback which gets
> 22-28mpg should be able to get in the high thirties.  This setup as a
> pure electric should go 20 miles, so for short trips, it should get
> better mpg than the lame hybrids available now.  For long trips it will
> be no worse than my current car (exept for the 500lbs of lead in the
> trunk).
>
> For those of you ready to reply "shut up and do it" you can sit on your
> hands now.  I'm looking for some thoughtful analysis, or references to
> other similar projects, perhaps some way to frame the calculations so
> that they make sense, etc.  With my pure-EV donor sitting in the garage
> waiting to get its engine yanked, I'm not about to embark on this
> project at the same time, so for now it's a thought experiment. :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:26:00 -0700
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Icon electric car/Bandit. Anyone in Southern
        California      available for a test drive?
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,      "Electric Vehicle
        Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Looks like a repackaged Zebra- Although the Zebra was also 72 volts and when
first talking to sales person they at first claimed AC drive and 100 mile
range. However it was an Alltrax AXE 7245 DC controller with D&D motor.
Also if you check out the terms it is to dealers only, no cash and carry
sales. Got website by goggling  supplied phone number.

On Dec 26, 2007 4:04 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've gotten plenty of emails.  I am in San Francisco.  If someone can go
> check these out I'd be mighty happy.  I am only interested in paying cash
> and towing one away.  Lawrence Rhodes..
>
>
>
> The "ICON" is a 3-wheel tough ALL electric vehicle and registers as cycle
>
> Specifications USES
>
> 35HP AC Motor (more power than 65 HP gas) Meter Maid Vehicle (we have
> police lights)
>
> Curtis 550 Amp Controller, latest technology Traffic Control (with police
> light bar)
>
> 72 Volt Lithium Battery System Mall Security (with police light bar)
>
> American Manufactured with American parts Industrial hauling
>
> Aluminum frame and chassis Industrial Security (with light bar)
>
> Street and highway legal, DOT safety windows Recreation (2 or 4 person)
>
> Over 100 miles on a charge, higher at lower speeds Commuter Car
> (20-cents/day operation)
>
> Safe-sliding doors and windows Pizza Delivery (we build stainless rear)
>
> Heater , Air Conditioner, windshield wiper/washer Errand Vehicle
>
> Comex Belt Drive 11:1 transmission Farm hauling
>
> Speeds up to 70MPH (adjusted at plant) Landscape vehicle
>
> 3-point seat belts, rear view mirrors, in and out Bullpen cart (baseball)
>
> Lights, turn signals, brake lights, flashers Parks and recreation
>
> Side Safety Lights, back-up lights, beeper Garbage (we build 3-yard
> dumpster)
>
> Length 11'-6", Width 5-'5", Height 5'-11" Tool Cart
>
> 14" Tires, Front tire is SAFE ride flat Colleges, Universities, Schools
>
> Pneumatic disk brakes Hospital Emergency vehicle
>
> Storage: front and back First Aid Vehicle (with light bar)
>
> All colors and custom painting, lettering Delivery Vehicle
>
> Stereo AM/FM radio/ CD player
>
> Deluxe standard interiors/ Custom, too
>
> 1500# payload, many custom back ends
>
> ALL American parts, available in USA
>
> Inside turning radius: 35"; Outside 112"
>
> 72 volt, 110/115 amp charger built in
>
> Tough front and rear bumpers
>
> Vehicle Weight: 1480# (base unit as pictured)
>
> 2 passenger cab (can be made for 4)
>
> FULL ONE YEAR WARRANTY.PLUS
>
>
>
> CALL 310-213-6501 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:28:35 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Adding series hybrid, without any remarkable (and they need to be remarkable) 
> improvements in engine efficiency will dramatically reduce mpg because it's 
> just adding losses upon losses.  Do you have some special engine in mind, or 
> what?
>   
I don't believe that's entirely true though. I'm not an expert so I 
could be wrong (yeah right :) but it's my impression that the otto 
engine is not uniform in efficiency so having it in series allows you to 
run it at its most efficient point and thus overcome the generator motor 
losses. you further overlook that the main reason for a series hybrid is 
that you can run it as a pure EV and only for the rarer longer journeys 
will it engage the combustion engine. The Aptera guy called it an REEV. 
range extended EV.

the Chevrolet Volt is exactly such a configuration and that's why some 
EV folks (including the yummy Chelsea Sexton :) are excited about that 
instead of the Prius-like hybrids outthere of which there are many already.

Dan



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:36:32 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

The "flywheel" is really not needed and actually undesirable but you
don't need one for a clutch.  They call them a button flywheel and in my
installation the small light clutch weights less than my taperlock
adapter. The racers have figured this out, I cut off the teeth and made
it even lighter. My problem was I just chose the wrong kind of guts for
the clutch. definitely should of got friction type with springs in disk.




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:46:24 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing
        batteries
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>From Dec 18, 2007

You may have seen this already - but if it works out - it seems pretty 
amazing.
Lead Acid: 50 miles.
Lithium Ion: 250 miles
These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles....(show me a gasoline or diesel car 
that can go this far on a single 'tank'! wow!)

If lithium is 1/3 the weight of Lead Acid, and you're willing to live with 
the weight - you could (presumably, if you could afford it) put 3x the 
Lithium batteries on your vehicle, getting ~ 750 miles.

These new batteries: ~ 7500 miles... on a single charge.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html


Stanford Report, December 18, 2007
Stanford's nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones
BY DAN STOBER

Stanford researchers have found a way to use silicon nanowires to reinvent 
the rechargeable lithium-ion batteries that power laptops, iPods, video 
cameras, cell phones, and countless other devices. 

The new version, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant 
professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the 
amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries. 
A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20 
hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers. 

"It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary 
development." 

The breakthrough is described in a paper, "High-performance lithium 
battery anodes using silicon nanowires," published online Dec. 16 in 
Nature Nanotechnology, written by Cui, his graduate chemistry student 
Candace Chan and five others. 

The greatly expanded storage capacity could make Li-ion batteries 
attractive to electric car manufacturers. Cui suggested that they could 
also be used in homes or offices to store electricity generated by rooftop 
solar panels. 

"Given the mature infrastructure behind silicon, this new technology can 
be pushed to real life quickly," Cui said. 

The electrical storage capacity of a Li-ion battery is limited by how much 
lithium can be held in the battery's anode, which is typically made of 
carbon. Silicon has a much higher capacity than carbon, but also has a 
drawback. 

Silicon placed in a battery swells as it absorbs positively charged 
lithium atoms during charging, then shrinks during use (i.e., when playing 
your iPod) as the lithium is drawn out of the silicon. This expand/shrink 
cycle typically causes the silicon (often in the form of particles or a 
thin film) to pulverize, degrading the performance of the battery. 

Cui's battery gets around this problem with nanotechnology. The lithium is 
stored in a forest of tiny silicon nanowires, each with a diameter 
one-thousandth the thickness of a sheet of paper. The nanowires inflate 
four times their normal size as they soak up lithium. But, unlike other 
silicon shapes, they do not fracture. 

Research on silicon in batteries began three decades ago. Chan explained: 
"The people kind of gave up on it because the capacity wasn't high enough 
and the cycle life wasn't good enough. And it was just because of the 
shape they were using. It was just too big, and they couldn't undergo the 
volume changes." 

Then, along came silicon nanowires. "We just kind of put them together," 
Chan said. 

For their experiments, Chan grew the nanowires on a stainless steel 
substrate, providing an excellent electrical connection. "It was a 
fantastic moment when Candace told me it was working," Cui said. 

Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering 
formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer. 
Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different 
steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well 
understood process." 

Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng 
and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford, 
Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and 
Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High 
Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.






------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:46:38 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low cost controller
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Dec 26, 2007 12:06 AM, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's a good way to gurantee that the batteries get out of ballance.

Nah; you can choose which parts of the pack get drawn from, so it will
act like a battery equalizer. It should provide a better balanced pack
than a standard controller if you do the micro right!

> Also I don't think it will work.
> The FETs don't care about the voltage of the sub pack, they care about the
> total voltage being opened.  If you've added enough packs to equal say
> 120V, then the FETs have to be able to switch 120V.
>
> Plus I can't think of any way to wire up the FETs that will allow you to
> add and remove packs the way it's described.

I thought the same thing until I saw his circuit diagram.

Look at the linked image under heading "BatPack Operation". Each FET
will only see the voltage of its subpack, and you can add and remove
packs.

The only problem is the diodes; they have to be rated for full voltage
and current, and you need lots: one for each controller module. You
will get a diode drop of waste for every BatPack module not being
used. Also, diodes usually have higher voltage drop than transistors,
so you will get far, far more waste heat and require a bigger heatsink
than a standard PWM controller. However, you might be able to get the
diodes cheaper than you could get good transistors.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:50:15 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

(This is OT, but I think worthy)

Danny is right,  All motive power in the Prius is ultimately derived from 
the ICE (unless we plug it in).  Although you also benefit be recovering 
otherwise-lost braking energy.  (Yes! Regen!!)  This boosts city MPG 
significantly.

-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?


> Well, notice that no mainstream manufacturers have made a series hybrid.
>
> Here's the thing.  So say you have like 10% lost in the generator head, 
> and 10% lost in the motor.  Now lead acid batts may also lose 20% or more 
> of the energy used to charge them too.  So will this engine really be that 
> much more efficient than the car engine?  Cause modern car engines with 
> computer controls are actually pretty impressive for efficiency.
>
> The Prius is misunderstood for a couple of reasons.  First, it gets a LOT 
> of its mpg gain from the extremely low-drag profile.  Second, the "hybrid" 
> status was not brought in because adding a motor and batts made it more 
> efficient.  It  was brought in because they wanted to use an "Atkins" 
> engine, a concept invented many years ago that would be significantly more 
> efficient yet had a poor peak power.  No one would be able to drive a car 
> that crawls off a stoplight.  So, they brought in the NiMH batt system to 
> compensate for the Atkin's shortcoming allowing them to take advantage of 
> the Atkins' efficiency.
>
> The point being, the batts added nothing to the mpg themselves.  The drag 
> profile and Atkins engine added that.  The NiMH pack was essential to 
> allowing the Atkins to be used so it is only indirectly related to the mpg 
> gains.
>
> Adding parallel-hybrid drive probably won't gain a car much if anything. 
> Adding series hybrid, without any remarkable (and they need to be 
> remarkable) improvements in engine efficiency will dramatically reduce mpg 
> because it's just adding losses upon losses.  Do you have some special 
> engine in mind, or what?
>
> Danny
>
> ---- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Look at NetGain and their EMIS set up.  That is exactly what they do and 
>> they repot a 26% improvement in mileage.  I hope to get my hybrid on the 
>> road in 2 weeks and will let you know.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 2:43 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>> Subject: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?
>>
>> I've done some searching on the interwebs, and aside from 21ponies.com,
>> I can't find anyone that's made a homebrew PHEV.  I was thinking of this
>> driving home yesterday.  Without going to the trouble of installing a
>> diesel powerplant in my car, I could just stick a small series DC motor
>> on the end of my crankshaft (ignoring physical size limits), throw 8 or
>> so leaddies in the trunk and connect a cheap controller.  Now I've got a
>> plug-in hybrid for $2500 plus wires.  You'd think with 100Ah batteries
>> (9600 watts in the bank, 4800 at 50%DOD) and a car that "should" use
>> 350wh/mile, you could supply half that with electric for 25 miles.  Now
>> I wouldn't expect 50mpg out of it, but you'd think my Outback which gets
>> 22-28mpg should be able to get in the high thirties.  This setup as a
>> pure electric should go 20 miles, so for short trips, it should get
>> better mpg than the lame hybrids available now.  For long trips it will
>> be no worse than my current car (exept for the 500lbs of lead in the 
>> trunk)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:56:55 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
        existingbatteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

I used to get excited about all this vaporware, but until someone 
demonstrates a working prototype that can be peer-reviewed, it might as just 
be another over-unity magnet motor.

I'm not nay-saying, but it's hard to get excited until they actually have 
one people can look at.  If you could make such a battery, wouldn't you be 
out showing it off?   I would!

-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of 
existingbatteries


> >From Dec 18, 2007
>
> You may have seen this already - but if it works out - it seems pretty
> amazing.
> Lead Acid: 50 miles.
> Lithium Ion: 250 miles
> These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles....(show me a gasoline or diesel car
> that can go this far on a single 'tank'! wow!)
>
> If lithium is 1/3 the weight of Lead Acid, and you're willing to live with
> the weight - you could (presumably, if you could afford it) put 3x the
> Lithium batteries on your vehicle, getting ~ 750 miles.
>
> These new batteries: ~ 7500 miles... on a single charge.
>
>
> http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
> http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html
>
>
> Stanford Report, December 18, 2007
> Stanford's nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones
> BY DAN STOBER
>
> Stanford researchers have found a way to use silicon nanowires to reinvent
> the rechargeable lithium-ion batteries that power laptops, iPods, video
> cameras, cell phones, and countless other devices.
>
> The new version, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant
> professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the
> amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries.
> A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20
> hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.
>
> "It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary
> development."
>
> The breakthrough is described in a paper, "High-performance lithium
> battery anodes using silicon nanowires," published online Dec. 16 in
> Nature Nanotechnology, written by Cui, his graduate chemistry student
> Candace Chan and five others.
>
> The greatly expanded storage capacity could make Li-ion batteries
> attractive to electric car manufacturers. Cui suggested that they could
> also be used in homes or offices to store electricity generated by rooftop
> solar panels.
>
> "Given the mature infrastructure behind silicon, this new technology can
> be pushed to real life quickly," Cui said.
>
> The electrical storage capacity of a Li-ion battery is limited by how much
> lithium can be held in the battery's anode, which is typically made of
> carbon. Silicon has a much higher capacity than carbon, but also has a
> drawback.
>
> Silicon placed in a battery swells as it absorbs positively charged
> lithium atoms during charging, then shrinks during use (i.e., when playing
> your iPod) as the lithium is drawn out of the silicon. This expand/shrink
> cycle typically causes the silicon (often in the form of particles or a
> thin film) to pulverize, degrading the performance of the battery.
>
> Cui's battery gets around this problem with nanotechnology. The lithium is
> stored in a forest of tiny silicon nanowires, each with a diameter
> one-thousandth the thickness of a sheet of paper. The nanowires inflate
> four times their normal size as they soak up lithium. But, unlike other
> silicon shapes, they do not fracture.
>
> Research on silicon in batteries began three decades ago. Chan explained:
> "The people kind of gave up on it because the capacity wasn't high enough
> and the cycle life wasn't good enough. And it was just because of the
> shape they were using. It was just too big, and they couldn't undergo the
> volume changes."
>
> Then, along came silicon nanowires. "We just kind of put them together,"
> Chan said.
>
> For their experiments, Chan grew the nanowires on a stainless steel
> substrate, providing an excellent electrical connection. "It was a
> fantastic moment when Candace told me it was working," Cui said.
>
> Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering
> formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer.
> Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different
> steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well
> understood process."
>
> Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng
> and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford,
> Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and
> Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High
> Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:59:00 -0800
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ***DHSPAM*** Re: Real world performance of home
        made    hybrid?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello to Danny and All,



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>...the "hybrid" status was not brought in because adding a motor and batts 
>made it more efficient.  It  was brought in because they wanted to use an 
>"Atkins" engine, a concept invented many years ago that would be significantly 
>more efficient yet had a poor peak power.  No one would be able to drive a car 
>that crawls off a stoplight.  So, they brought in the NiMH batt system to 
>compensate for the Atkin's shortcoming allowing them to take advantage of the 
>Atkins' efficiency.
>  
>

Great comments here from Danny. He's one of the only ones I've seen talk 
about the main thrust behind the Prius hybrid, that being efficient and 
clean running due to the use of the Atkins Cycle type ICE. I do disagree 
with one point though:

>The point being, the batts added nothing to the mpg themselves.  The drag 
>profile and Atkins engine added that.  The NiMH pack was essential to allowing 
>the Atkins to be used so it is only indirectly related to the mpg gains.
>  
>

I disagree. Without the extra torque that the electric motors, fed by 
the batteries that stored otherwise wasted energy provide, extra 
throttle input (flooring the accelerator to get the low-torque Atkins 
Cycle type ICE to move the car from rest and up mild hills) would kill 
the city driving mpg 'and' even affect highway speed driving on mild 
grades in particular.

Case in point that substantiates this. The Honda Insight uses the same 
principle idea as the Prius, in that they take an otherwise low torque 
but fuel efficient gas engine...in this case, instead of the Atkins 
Cycle type ICE it's a lean burn type ICE, and team it up with the same 
combo of a high torque electric motor fed by the batteries that stored 
otherwise wasted energy. I've simply switched-off my Insight's IMA 
system's HV circuit breaker, and then drove two fixed routes, one a city 
cycle loop and the other a freeway run. I then repeated on the same day, 
same ambient temp, etc. the runs with the IMA back on line. In both 
cases, yes,  the Insight's ultra light weight, freer rolling bearing, 
LRR tires, and super aero body were the 'main' MPG saver, but the car 
struggled badly without electric assist, so I had to plant the gas pedal 
down farther in order to make the car accelerate from rest the same, 
pull mild grades the same, and even on the freeway when hitting gentle 
rises and falls in the road, had to compensate with a heavier foot. The 
car with the IMA working delivered 66 mpg in the city loop and 85 mpg on 
the freeway. The car without the IMA working delivered 51 mpg in the 
city loop and about 75 mpg on the freeway. Other Insighteers have done 
the same tests...some more detailed than mine, and all have come back 
with the same results...the car gets substantially better MPG with the 
electric assist than without. A Toyota Prius. driven in the same manner, 
that is, with the same type of acceleration and speeds up mild grades 
with and without electric assist, will do the same thing.

Clearly, the electric assist does improve these hybrid's mpg...after 
all, they get their energy from otherwise wasted energy lost in all 
non-hybrid gas vehicles. In addition to their being light as possible 
and as aero as possible, acquiring, storing, then using this extra 
energy is what raises the hybrid car's mpg.

See Ya.....John Wayland



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:40:29 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
        existingbatteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Dec 26, 2007 9:56 AM, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I used to get excited about all this vaporware, but until someone
> demonstrates a working prototype that can be peer-reviewed, it might as just
> be another over-unity magnet motor.
>
> I'm not nay-saying, but it's hard to get excited until they actually have
> one people can look at.  If you could make such a battery, wouldn't you be
> out showing it off?   I would!

They can make a small version of such a battery in a lab. Even if
they're telling the truth (which I think they are), there isn't much
to show off yet.

In 10 years, if they can figure out how to mass-produce it and make it
affordable, then I will be extremely excited. For now, I can get
excited about the possibilities even though I know it'll be a while
before it's on the streets.

These energy densities would let electric actually compete with
gasoline properly; without range issues, it will be entirely economy,
and I think that means that EVs would win.

Although I think 7500 miles isn't going to happen; Tesla's 250 miles
weighs 900 pounds. I think it's more likely to get 500 miles to a
charge with 180 pounds of batteries that costs a lot less.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:12:33 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
        existing        batteries
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 26 Dec 2007 at 9:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> These new batteries: ~ 2500 miles.

A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  

First is whether it can be commercialized in our highly competitive business 
environment, which tends to reward something between stasis and gradual, 
incremental change.  

Second is a more practical issue for EVers - the amount of time and power 
required to >fill< a battery of such capacity.

The latter first.  Suppose we actually could have an EV battery with a 
capacity of 600 kWh.  Let's see what it would take to charge that battery.

The most common new home electrical service today is a 200 amp, 240 volt 
one, capable of producing 48kW.  Suppose you had no electric water heater, 
range, air-con, or space heat, and could devote half your capacity to 
charging your EV.  The math is pretty straightforward.  At 25kW, charging a 
600kWh battery would take at least 24 hours.  

Of course you probably wouldn't run the battery flat very often, but when 
you did, most likely you'd have to charge at a commercial charging station 
rather than at home.  

How long would you want to wait for that?  Suppose you wanted to charge this 
battery to 80% in 30 minutes.  You would need 960kW of power - about the 
maximum power of 20 normal homes, and probably the average power of about 
60!  This would most likely be done during business hours, when grid load is 
at its peak.  Not a problem for the first few hundred purchasers, but what 
happens to the grid when we have 10,000 such EVs in service?  100,000?  
1,000,000?

Now as for commercialization, IF the technology proves usable, IF it scales, 
IF it can be mass-produced, IF it can be made for a price that someone other 
than NASA can afford, then we have the hurdle of safety.  I'm no 
electrochemist, but my understanding is that one reason for the heat and 
fire problems associated with lithium batteries is the very high energy and 
power contained a small package with little square area to radiate waste 
heat.  Multiply that by ten and you have a real challenge.  

None of the challenges is insurmountable, but again the question is, can you 
solve the problems at a price that people are wiling to pay?  The ICE's 
century of development has made it affordable in spite of its nightmarish 
complexity (I sometimes compare it to the against-all-odds refinement of the 
phonograph cartridge in the late 1970s).

Alas, the culture that allowed that development no longer exists in our 
world. The "nanowire" battery will not have a century to become competitive. 
 

Depending on how much it costs to implement, this battery could end up like 
silver-zinc batteries - really an option only for the deepest pockets 
(military and aerospace applications).  If it's successful there, and if 
increased production can lower prices (meaning automated factories and low 
cost of materials), then we might see it used in high-end portable 
electronic devices such as cellular phones and computers.  I expect that an 
EV application, if any, will come along appreciably later than those.

In sum, it's an exciting development, if true, but I suggest that you don't 
wait for nanowire batteries for your EV.  Lead and perhaps various flavors 
of lithum are available NOW and they WORK.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
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------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:30:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Josh and Jenifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Re al world performance of home made hybrid?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


just another idea for hybrid,

has anyone looked at the isuzu npr on their international website.  they
have a hybrid system on their truck where the electric motor supplies power
for the transmission through the PTO port on the side of the tranny.  it can
be run IC alone, IC and Electric together or just Electric.  this is a
12000gwv truck that they use for deliveries and such.  (furniture store
truck over here)  what i was thinking is that you could use that kind of
transmission in a smaller vehicle and power it off the IC or Electric.  

http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/technology/randd/project6/01.html
-- 
View this message in context: 
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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:16:38 -0800
From: Ed Blackmond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low cost controller
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Dec 26, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Morgan LaMoore wrote:

> On Dec 26, 2007 12:06 AM, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> It's a good way to gurantee that the batteries get out of ballance.
>
> Nah; you can choose which parts of the pack get drawn from, so it will
> act like a battery equalizer. It should provide a better balanced pack
> than a standard controller if you do the micro right!
>
>> Also I don't think it will work.
>> The FETs don't care about the voltage of the sub pack, they care  
>> about the
>> total voltage being opened.  If you've added enough packs to equal  
>> say
>> 120V, then the FETs have to be able to switch 120V.
>>
>> Plus I can't think of any way to wire up the FETs that will allow  
>> you to
>> add and remove packs the way it's described.
>
> I thought the same thing until I saw his circuit diagram.
>
> Look at the linked image under heading "BatPack Operation". Each FET
> will only see the voltage of its subpack, and you can add and remove
> packs.
>
> The only problem is the diodes; they have to be rated for full voltage
> and current, and you need lots: one for each controller module. You
> will get a diode drop of waste for every BatPack module not being
> used. Also, diodes usually have higher voltage drop than transistors,
> so you will get far, far more waste heat and require a bigger heatsink
> than a standard PWM controller. However, you might be able to get the
> diodes cheaper than you could get good transistors.

You could also replace the diode with a MOSFET equivalent to the  
first one.  Driving the currents in this application, is going to  
take multiple MOSFETs in parallel, so the equivalent Rdson will be  
pretty low and the waste heat will be less than through the diode.   
It will be much more expensive than the diode though, but this can be  
worked around too.  Use the MOSFETs as the charger as well.  Rectify  
the utility AC and have the microcontroller switch battery modules  
directly onto the rectified input in sync with the rectified  
waveform.  Now the same MOSFETs that drive the motor also charge the  
batteries.  This is essentially a multi-level converter.  The  
microcontroller is already monitoring the batteries, so these MOSFETs  
are also the BMS.  The microcontroller is also programmable, so it  
can be modified for the algorithms of any battery chemistry.  With  
the quantity of MOSFETs here, quantity discounts apply to building  
one controller/charger/BMS.

Ed



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:47:52 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
        existing batteries
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I think you overlooked something David.
let's take a contrasty example. Lee Hart has given, as an example of 
power consumption, that his car used 80V 120A at about 100km/h. that's 
roughly 10kW.
with a phenomenal pack of 600kWh that's 60 straight hours at that power 
rate. a single charge range of 6000 km. just maybe David, it won't 
really be necessary to charge that up in 30 minutes : )  just because 
you get a bigger pack you wont suddenly be driving 10 times as much.
your reaction is akin to complaining about where to put the 20 ton gold 
they dumped in your driveway. it's a non issue.

I'd go out on a limb and guess they wouldn't put 600kWh packs in cars. I 
think we will end up at around 50kWh almost no matter how good the 
technology gets, maybe even much less if the charging infrastructure and 
battery lucidity gets really good.

I don't expect they will be able to make 1700Wh/kg batteries, we still 
don't know what the 10x was in relation to. it could be compared to lead 
at 30Wh/kg for all we know. the joker in charge hasn't seen fit to 
answer clarifying questions. I also suspect that the 10x was in 
reference to a single battery parameter and not necessarily translate to 
10x better for the entire battery. maybe a practical battery would land 
on 400Wh/kg which would also be quite good. it could also be the case 
that they hit insurmountable problems like explosive danger. I wouldn't 
want to be in a car where a 600kWh pack melted down. taking a swim in a 
iron furnace might be a welcomed relaxation compared to it.

Dan


EVDL Administrator wrote:
> A lot of people forget side issues with such a development.  
> Suppose we actually could have an EV battery with a 
> capacity of 600 kWh.  Let's see what it would take to charge that battery.
>
> The most common new home electrical service today is a 200 amp, 240 volt 
> one, capable of producing 48kW.  Suppose you had no electric water heater, 
> range, air-con, or space heat, and could devote half your capacity to 
> charging your EV.  The math is pretty straightforward.  At 25kW, charging a 
> 600kWh battery would take at least 24 hours.  
>   



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:49:48 -0800 (PST)
From: nicklogan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of
        existing batteries
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Cui said that a patent application has been filed. He is considering 
formation of a company or an agreement with a battery manufacturer. 
Manufacturing the nanowire batteries would require "one or two different 
steps, but the process can certainly be scaled up," he added. "It's a well 
understood process." 

Also contributing to the paper in Nature Nanotechnology were Halin Peng 
and Robert A. Huggins of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford, 
Gao Liu of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Kevin McIlwrath and 
Xiao Feng Zhang of the electron microscope division of Hitachi High 
Technologies in Pleasanton, Calif.



Hopefully , these links will work ok but anyone that want's to see the
charge/discharge curves can look here:

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nnano.2007.411_F2.html

The original paper and supplemental info are here :

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nnano.2007.411.html
http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nnano.2007.411-s1.pdf

Many factors will determine whether the technology ever makes it to the real
world (as David R. already pointed out), but although the analysis
techniques are exotic the growth methods used are well understood and
scalable. The use of gold as a catalyst is in minuscule quantities and other
metals are also usable as catalysts to grow on 304 stainless.

Of course, I'm still waiting for my flying car like everyone else :>), but
this looks hopeful.
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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

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