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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sparrow Tire Melt-down! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   2. Re: Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock brakes)
      ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   3. Re: charge in parallel, discharge in series (Jeff Major)
   4. Re: EV performance question (damon henry)
   5. Re: High voltage systems (Jeff Shanab)
   6. Re: EV performance question (shred)
   7. Re: Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock brakes)
      (Pestka, Dennis J)
   8. Re: High voltage systems (Morgan LaMoore)
   9. Re: EV performance question (R. Matt Milliron)
  10.  100+ new Li Battery companies (Idgit)
  11. Re: 50 mile commute EV in GB (Thomas Ward)
  12. Re: Field Resistance (Jeff Major)
  13. Re: High voltage systems (Dale Ulan)
  14. Battery Beach 2008 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  15. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (torich)
  16. Re: Electric Draggon (aka Electric Dragin':-) (keith vansickle)
  17. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Dan Frederiksen)
  18.  News from Firefly (shred)
  19.  News from Firefly (shred)
  20.  lifepo4 or lifeo4 (EV Pete)
  21. Re: lifepo4 or lifeo4 (Morgan LaMoore)
  22. Re: High voltage systems (Metric Mind)
  23. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Metric Mind)
  24. Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!) (Josh Creel)
  25. Re: Initial Battery Balancing Act (R. Matt Milliron)
  26. Re: Electric Dragin' Video Footage (EV Manny)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:27:12 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down!
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

That is exactly what I did with Tweety. Just turn the proportioning 
valve off (temporarily). That is why the original post title was "Poor 
man's line lock brakes".
A big difference with electric however is that you can do the meltdown 
in high gear - spinning the tire much faster than an ICE in low gear. 
Tweety was spinning at 75 MPH. Really gets a good burn!

Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down!



Almost any car can be easily modified to do tire meltdowns. Disable the
brakes
to the drive wheels and apply power and the brakes at the same time.


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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:40:03 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock
        brakes)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Yes, same here. I started building hot muscle cars with my brother 
before I could legally drive. In 75 I bought a 69 Nova. My brother 
bought a new Z28 Camaro sometime around 78. We built them up and raced 
the Z28 at a local drag strip. Lots of wild adventure there! Too off 
topic for here, but suffice to say quite a wild ride. I sold the Nova 
to my good friend Jason Hill who is keeping it very much alive!

I have to say, though, as much fun as I had with the muscle gassers, 
that doesn't hold a candle to the fun I am now having with electric!

Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock 
brakes)



Ken,
Cool burn out, reminds me of my high school days.
Our house had a series of black tracks in front, all
of my friends and brothers did burn outs in front of
the house! My brother had a 69 Firebird and I had a
matching burnt orange 76 Firebird. We always had
muscle cars in high school (that was 1984) and after
engineering school I switched to electrics (I have a
EE degree after all, so this is even cooler).
Rock on!
Rod
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Ken,
> That was nice!! So what kind of options do you
> have for a wider tire?
> Any chance of getting a BF Goodrich g-Force T/A Drag
> Radial under that thing
> ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of John Wayland
> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:33 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor
> man's line lock brakes)
> >
> > Hello to Ken and All,
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >Well, it works good enough...just a bit of brake
> > >action on the rear but light enough to not burn
> the brakes up during a
> > burnout.
> > >So I gave it a try. Heidi took the video...I let
> off the brakes and it
> started
> > to catch traction...It finally became clear that
> it wasn't going to stop
> > burning for the length of the street
> > >
> > Ken, you made my day with this video!!! As I am
> sitting here wishing
> > for warm weather to hurry up and arrive in
> winterized Oregon, watching
> > your Sparrow doing a Zombiesque burn melted away
> my winter
> > funk...thanks! Do 'that' a few times at car shows,
> and you'll have the
> > gassers with their jaws hanging open, wishing
> 'they' had an electric
> > car! This is going into my favorite EV videos
> collection!
> >
> > See Ya....John Wayland
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:59:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] charge in parallel, discharge in series
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


--- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I thank you for a clear explination.  I also
> searched the archives and saw some of the problems
> people have seen in modular charging.  So far my
> system is looking good but it looks like I will need
> to keep an eye on things.  If a bank dies the there
> can be serious battery damage.

Hi David,

I had this problem once, kind of.  I run 48 volts,
four 12 volt batteries.  I draw the 12 volt
accessories from one.  The user left the headlight on
and drained one battery so low it would not charge. 
Then when he tried to use the truck the next day, he
would get UV (undervoltage) faults.  It was easy to
detect the problem and "stupid" charge the dead
battery enough to get the smart charger to kick in. 
Then an overnight charge on the whole system and he
was good to go.

I think you do a 72 volt system, so one dead 12 might
not UV fault you.  I suggest you get a voltmeter on
the dash and you can easily see if you have the system
properly charged.

Regards,

Jeff M



      
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:08:28 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV performance question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


My guess is that you will be disappointed with the performance a Curtis offers 
and quite pleased with a Zilla.  As far as LV or HV.  Are you sure that you 
will always be happy at 144 volts?  You have to think of both range and 
performance.  One of the easiest ways to add more range is to slip in a couple 
more batteries in series.  

On the first go round of my motorcycle I had 8 large 6 volt SAFT STM 100s as 
batteries.  When I bought a controller I had to decide whether to get a 48v or 
72v model.  I looked at the batteries and knew there was no way I would ever 
get more of them on the bike so went with the 48v controller.  I've been 
wishing I spent the extra $200 ever since.  Those batteries died and when it 
came time to replace them I did not have nearly the options with the 48v 
controller I would have with a 72v model.  In fact one of the reasons I started 
out with only a 72 volt controller on my truck is because I know that if I am 
not happy with it I can use it on my motorcycle and get something different for 
my truck.  For now I think you would be thrilled with a LV Zilla 1K, but after 
a year or two passes you may get the itch to do something a little differently. 
 It may be worth spending more up front to have more options down the line.

damon


> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:42:05 -0800
> Subject: [EVDL] EV performance question
>
> OK, all this EV dragin stuff has my attention. My Samurai EV conversion
> project has changed from a sensible 'round town low voltage plan, to
> something more. I'm ordering a Warp 9 now, the question is which
> controller. The battery pack will be 144 volts of AGM batteries.
>
> My question for all of you is how much controller do I need to briskly, not
> Wayland-esk, move my what will likely be a 2300 pound brick around town. A
> typical driving day is 10 or 15 miles. Remember I've been driving a Samurai
> with a whooping 60 hp, some zip off the line for a few blocks would be way
> cool. I rarely drive this on the freeway so over 55 is not an issue.
>
> Is a Curtis adequate? If I pony up to a Zilla 1K, what's your feeling about
> LV vs. HV models.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:20:10 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I was doing some calculations a while ago when I wanted to design an AC
drive. It appeared as if switching losses can be reduced by switching
from sinusoidal drive to 6 step at higher rpm and keeping the sinusoidal
drive for lower rpm where it is smoother and more efficient.

The sensorless 6 step drive would be the redundant fall back mode
when/if the encoder fails
This also would reduce the processing power needed, kinda like auto
manufacturers currently do with car computers, and might help keep the
cost down. At least that was my hope. Perhaps reprogram fuel injection
computers in existing cars, the 6 fuel injector drives drive the IGBT's :-)



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:30:28 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV performance question
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I would say a 500 amp Curtis controller used at 144 volts would be fine in
this light of a vehicle.
You should have better accereleration then the ICE engine.
Especially at lower around town speeds.
Obviously a higher amperage controller (water cooled Zilla) would be faster
and or quicker but
would be harder on you batteries, and drive train if you put you foot in it
a lot.
Not to mention your wallet.
Neal

Brad Bowler wrote:
> 
> OK, all this EV dragin stuff has my attention.  My Samurai EV conversion 
> project has changed from a sensible 'round town low voltage plan, to 
> something more.  I'm ordering a Warp 9 now, the question is which 
> controller.  The battery pack will be 144 volts of AGM batteries.
> 
> My question for all of you is how much controller do I need to briskly,
> not 
> Wayland-esk, move my what will likely be a 2300 pound brick around town. 
> A 
> typical driving day is 10 or 15 miles.  Remember I've been driving a
> Samurai 
> with a whooping 60 hp, some zip off the line for a few blocks would be way 
> cool.  I rarely drive this on the freeway so over 55 is not an issue.
> 
> Is a Curtis adequate?  If I pony up to a Zilla 1K, what's your feeling
> about 
> LV vs. HV models. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/EV-performance-question-tp15152272p15160225.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:37:14 -0600
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock
        brakes)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Ken;

Great video !
I can't wait to get my 65 truck on the road.
Working on cosmetics now, with electrical assembly to start soon.
With the 1200 Raptor, 156V of Odyssey PC1750s, 4.88 gears, and a ~ 2900#
curb weight, this thing should get out of the hole pretty quick.

I'm really looking forward to hearing about all the new vehicles in the
works.
Plasma Boy Racing, Shawn's multi motored dragster, Dennis B's Dragster
and truck, and the Orange Pinto from hell.

John W. and others;

When can we expect the first racing news of the season ?
Give us an update on your schedules.

I'm getting cabin fever also! 

Dennis
Elsberry, MO

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:52 PM
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock
brakes)

Hey John,

Thanks for the kind words!  Tweety does burn outs a bit more often than
it should but it seems to never get documented.  The line lock brake
effect really makes it more spectacular since I can hold it longer.
Without brakes it just goes too fast and always runs out of room.
I am disappointed that we didn't get a picture of the 1/2 inch deep pile
of tire rubber left on the street before it got obliterated by the crowd
that later formed.  Also, the video still did not catch the full extent
of the smoke cloud.  When I turned around to drive back I had to pause
because I couldn't see through the dense smoke.  Then, later we had to
ventilate the house because it was full of smoke!  After I brought it
back and parked it in the driveway, the tire was still smoking!  
All this took place with a pack of Odyssey PC1200s.  The original plan
was Genesis XE-40's, but Dick Brown was out of those so we got Odysseys.
The Zilla is set to 500 battery amps with a low voltage limit of 10
volts per battery.  
The pack never dropped below 150 volts (11.5 per battery).

Ken




In a message dated 1/27/2008 2:38:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello to Ken and All,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Well, it works good enough...just a bit of brake action on the rear but

>light enough to not burn the brakes up during a
burnout.  
>So I gave it a try.  Heidi took the video...I let off the brakes and it
started to catch traction...It finally became clear that it wasn't going
to stop burning for the length of the street
>
Ken, you made my day with this video!!!  As I am sitting here wishing
for warm weather to hurry up and arrive in winterized Oregon, watching
your Sparrow doing a Zombiesque burn melted away my winter
funk...thanks! Do 'that' a few times at car shows, and you'll have the
gassers with their jaws hanging open, wishing 'they' had an electric
car! This is going into my favorite EV videos collection!

See Ya....John Wayland



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489





------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:40:33 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Even with a 6-step square wave, you need to control the amplitude,
which requires PWM (and switching losses). So you might as well use
sinusoidal commutation when a $10 micro has all the processing power
you need to do sinusoidal at 20kHz (using lookup tables).

I think a modern gas engine requires more processing power than vector
control of AC Induction motors.

-Morgan LaMoore

On 1/29/08, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was doing some calculations a while ago when I wanted to design an AC
> drive. It appeared as if switching losses can be reduced by switching
> from sinusoidal drive to 6 step at higher rpm and keeping the sinusoidal
> drive for lower rpm where it is smoother and more efficient.
>
> The sensorless 6 step drive would be the redundant fall back mode
> when/if the encoder fails
> This also would reduce the processing power needed, kinda like auto
> manufacturers currently do with car computers, and might help keep the
> cost down. At least that was my hope. Perhaps reprogram fuel injection
> computers in existing cars, the 6 fuel injector drives drive the IGBT's :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

-- 
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:32:21 -0600
From: "R. Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV performance question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:42:05 -0800, you wrote:

>OK, all this EV dragin stuff has my attention.  My Samurai EV conversion 
>project has changed from a sensible 'round town low voltage plan, to 
>something more.  I'm ordering a Warp 9 now, the question is which 
>controller.  The battery pack will be 144 volts of AGM batteries.

  You will want a controller with as many "amps" as you can afford. If
I remember my numbers, a 1000 amp controller with 120 volt battery
pack equals about 120 horse power, full on.

>My question for all of you is how much controller do I need to briskly, not 
>Wayland-esk, move my what will likely be a 2300 pound brick around town.  A 
>typical driving day is 10 or 15 miles.  Remember I've been driving a Samurai 
>with a whooping 60 hp, some zip off the line for a few blocks would be way 
>cool.  I rarely drive this on the freeway so over 55 is not an issue.
>
>Is a Curtis adequate?  If I pony up to a Zilla 1K, what's your feeling about 
>LV vs. HV models. 
  
  If you get a Zilla get the HV model.  Later, down the line you will
have the option to change/upgrade things if you want or need to.  It
is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
I should have done this. :(  The good news is, I can get an upgrade
for the difference in price between the two models.

  R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica (Ford Escort)  
http://evalbum.austinev.org/702
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/custom_motors/Hack+vs+Husted/

  This machine had been garaged for 17 years.  I have 
upgraded and made it operable.  Tabitha, my daughter, 
named it, "Pikachu".  It's yellow and black, electric 
and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
  




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:45:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Idgit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  100+ new Li Battery companies
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


"There here!"

Dozens of new Li ion, ironphosphate, and polymer battery companies in China,
where lawyers and warranties haven't quite settled in.  How are we going to
sort through all of these?  Here's 5,000 hits on Alibaba for rechargeable
lithium battery in China alone:

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Type=&year=&month=&location=&keyword=&SearchText=rechargeable+lithium+battery&Country=CN&srchYearMonth=&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=0

I've corresponded with a few, and prices are dropping.  Zeva 
http://zeva.com.au/tech/headway/  showed the Headway as a strong product
around $.55/WH.  YESA just emailed me about adding supercaps to a 15KWH
pack, with BMS, and "Our battery have one whole year warranty."  They're set
up for ebikes but moving into EV's.  http://www.yesa.com.cn/index.asp 

Who's going to be numero uno guinea pig to check out the warranty for these?

I suggest we all start updating the chart:
http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LithiumIon#head-4378ab84eba85c7f8b72caab600c1d86dd3f0ca2
with just one entry for each battery *type* (not every model number,) so we
can thin it out and make some sensible comparisons of these companies. 
Adding a column of who had tried/tested them (and contact link) would help
greatly also.

Idgit
-- 
View this message in context: 
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Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:17:15 +0000
From: Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 50 mile commute EV in GB
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Phil

I used to sommute 44 miles / day in a Berlingo at about 50mph, there was 
about 10-20% left in the batteries depending on wind, actual speed, 
traffic lights. If you follow a large artic then 25% left.
I have had over 70miles at 30mph ish.

So if you aren't too bothered about top speed a Berlingo will do the trick.
I think you may be able add a few extra batteries and charge them 
separately.








> On Jan 10, 2008 6:02 AM, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Can anyone recommend a second-hand EV for someone in GB capable of a 50 mile
>> commute?   Maybe somewhere else in the EU?
> 



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:21:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Field Resistance
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Hi Pete,

I assume you are talking about the shunt field.  It
may be connected internally in the motor.  You need to
isolate it.  This can be done by lifting the brushes
off the comm and placing a piece of paper between the
brush and comm.  Then take your Ohmmeter and touch the
leads (probes) together.  It should read zero.  Adjust
if necessary.  If no adjustment is available, note the
reading.  Then touch the Ohmmeter leads to the motor
terminals.  Meter should read the shunt field
resistance.  Subtract the initial reading of the
meter.  My guess is you should see something in the 3
to 15 Ohm range.  If in the kiloOhm range or below 1
Ohm, then go to plan B.

Let us know how it works.

Jeff M


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Guess Resistance is checked with the OHM meter. Is
> that correct? How  
> would one hook up the meter to the field windings to
> check for  
> resistance?
> 
> Pete  :  )
> 
> Guess it's time to take a basic electronics class at
> the local college.
> 
> 
> On Jan 25, 2008, at 11:17 AM, gottdi wrote:
> 
> >
> > I have the GE Starter/Generator Motor and was
> asked about the field  
> > voltage
> > and resistance. How does one figure the resistance
> of the field? 


      
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:16:21 -0700
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

>Even with a 6-step square wave, you need to control the amplitude,
>which requires PWM (and switching losses). So you might as well use
>sinusoidal commutation when a $10 micro has all the processing power
>you need to do sinusoidal at 20kHz (using lookup tables).

Depends on what the motor wants, too. Some motors won't like the
harmonics of a square wave, and some are wound for it.

>I think a modern gas engine requires more processing power than vector
>control of AC Induction motors.

Modern gas engines do, however, the priorities are a lot different.
The I/O is typically a lot slower and less precise (there are filters
on all of the inputs that you don't necessarily want). An IC engine
has a bandwidth of maybe 100 Hz. Some sensors are sampled more like
1000 Hz. The exception is engine speed and position, which is usually
a 6 crank degree pulse (with two teeth missing). About 60% of the
software in a modern ICE controller is dedicated to diagnostics. A
typical 'semi-modern' controller (2002-2006) is based on the Freescale
MPC563 and MPC565.

I'm not so sure that the best idea would be to use an automotive ICE
controller to make an EV controller out of. Also, a lot of hassle goes
into getting past the bootloader security and stuff like that. Also,
the injector driver outputs don't need to have matched propagation
delays, it is common for automotive ECM's to have somewhere between
2 and 50 microsecond delays on the injector outputs with a wide
tolerance. You don't want that on a VFD bridge because it'll blow up.

I think that a DIY controller would be nice with one of those
DSPIC30F parts, CAN bus, and then another controller to actually
do the torque mapping. Leave the VFD DSP/controller to do vector
control, fault finding and management, and just communicate
that information back and forth to another controller via a CAN
bus. I've got PC boards done up for this (DSPIC, isolated CAN,
isolated gate drives, power supply) but I haven't got around
to getting them made up yet. I was trying to figure out how to
do phase current sensing so I was planning on allowing either
voltage drop sensing or LEM (0-5V) inputs.

For either a BLDC or ACIM, a lost-sensor fallback might as well be
whatever the motor wants (sinusoidal or six-step), you just need
to estimate rotor speed and position which you can do with or
without the speed sensor.

Maybe use an automotive-style speed sensor like the Siemens motors?
Fine-pitch encoders are a PITA and seem to be a reliability problem
whenever I talk to anyone using them.

-Dale



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:49:09 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Beach 2008
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Everybody,

Made it to Battery Beach by the skin of my teeth.  With no real testing on the 
car. Got two runs in, one against the Nissian Scion. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yXRVwM4234

The announcer and track people were GREAT and I have never felt so welcome.   I 
remember reading a post by another drag racer about taking the lash out of the 
drivertrain before taking off. ( after snapping both my axels on the 3rd run)  
The first two runs, I had been taking it easy and working my way up slowly and 
it wasn't until the 3rd run that I pushed it hard enough to spin  the tires in 
the burn out pen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXX-bCfkkUw&feature=user

As you can see from the video, I went past the light, backed up and didn't 
tighten the drive train up, but just switched the forward/reverse switch to 
forward leaving all the play in the axels taking up the wrong way.

I would like to thank Shawn, again, for all the work he did getting this 
together. I know  he put a lot of time an effort into it.

I sold my lawn business and I will now be converting EV's full time until all 
the money is GONE !!
Well,  I have to get back to work. 

I wish everyone well  and miss being on the list but, with half a dozen people 
waiting for their cars, I have to keep my nose to the grindstone.  One 
unexpected thing about doing EV's full time, is that there doesn't seem to be 
any time to do my own any more.

Steve Clunn (the spelling master).

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:23:19 -0500
From: "torich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

http://kingyoup.en.alibaba.com/product/200011170/200548277/LED/Rechargeable_LiFePO4_Power_Battery_for_Wheelchair_Electric_Car.html
 Rich in Va
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Idgit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies


>
> "There here!"
>
> Dozens of new Li ion, ironphosphate, and polymer battery companies in 
> China,
> where lawyers and warranties haven't quite settled in.  How are we going 
> to
> sort through all of these?  Here's 5,000 hits on Alibaba for rechargeable
> lithium battery in China alone:
>
> http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Type=&year=&month=&location=&keyword=&SearchText=rechargeable+lithium+battery&Country=CN&srchYearMonth=&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=0
>
> I've corresponded with a few, and prices are dropping.  Zeva
> http://zeva.com.au/tech/headway/  showed the Headway as a strong product
> around $.55/WH.  YESA just emailed me about adding supercaps to a 15KWH
> pack, with BMS, and "Our battery have one whole year warranty."  They're 
> set
> up for ebikes but moving into EV's.  http://www.yesa.com.cn/index.asp
>
> Who's going to be numero uno guinea pig to check out the warranty for 
> these?
>
> I suggest we all start updating the chart:
> http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LithiumIon#head-4378ab84eba85c7f8b72caab600c1d86dd3f0ca2
> with just one entry for each battery *type* (not every model number,) so 
> we
> can thin it out and make some sensible comparisons of these companies.
> Adding a column of who had tried/tested them (and contact link) would help
> greatly also.
>
> Idgit
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/100%2B-new-Li-Battery-companies-tp15162187p15162187.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.15/1249 - Release Date: 
> 1/29/2008 9:51 AM
> 



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:06:34 -0800 (PST)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Draggon (aka Electric Dragin':-)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

thanks for coming..hope you can make it back for our
rain day. This spring...should have a hot track and no
threat of rain.  Maybe we can get some more fast
competition for you.
thanks again
keith
--- Jim Waite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -->>Dennis wrote<<---
> 
> > I wish to thank the promoters and sponsors of the
> 1st time Event in
> > San DiEgo. ...... I am very happy to have
> attended, and I much look
> forward to next years dragon event.    Dennis Berube
>   
> -->snip<<-- 
> 
> To which I want to add my sincere thanks to EVeryone
> involved in
> organizing and bringing this truly amazing EVent to
> fruition: It simply
> never ceases to amaze me the dedication of our EV
> community to support
> these EVents which frankly allows EVeryone involved
> to keep (or get)
> amp'd and inspired!
> 
> Similar to Dennis, a last minute change of plans
> allowed me to attend,
> and as I drove into the Barona Drag Strip, I was
> candidly blown away by
> the hundreds (literally!) who showed up for this
> EV's only EVent(and
> hybrids, but no STEENKIN GASSERS!), especially on a
> blustery and chili
> day (by San Diego standards).
> 
> I especially appreciated all of the racers efforts,
> and in particular
> Dennis's new S-10 and Michael Kady's TWO
> lithium-powered Cobra's (these
> two put on one helluva show!). I'm still working on
> getting the video
> downloads stitched together for a triad of heads up
> "grudge" racing
> between these two, as well as some great bracket
> racing by Michael &
> others. Also, if he hasn't already seen it, I think
> there's a contender
> down here looking to "unseat" Otmar and his Electric
> Couch! Obviously
> photos & videos can only go so far to tell "the
> whole story", but for
> me, the in-person camaraderie (and friendly on & off
> track-side
> bantering), and cheering from the crowd goes a LONG
> way towards stokin'
> the EV fires.
> 
> It was great to spend time chatting with Dennis,
> Michael, Jim Husted,
> Brian Hall, Ken Koch (with some great/pending news
> about KTA), Bill
> Hammons, and others. Hope to see EVeryone (and many
> more?) next year!
> 
> Jim Waite
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:51:57 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Idgit wrote:
> Dozens of new Li ion, ironphosphate, and polymer battery companies in China,
> where lawyers and warranties haven't quite settled in.  How are we going to
> sort through all of these?
>   

narrow it down to lifepo4 or lifeo4 or lifepso4 for starters. unless you 
really need the lower weight I figure the longer life and more stable 
chemistry is more interesting. and they cost about the same per wh it 
seems. I have recently gone through them but regular check up is 
prudent. all it takes is one brilliant product.

> http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Type=&year=&month=&location=&keyword=&SearchText=rechargeable+lithium+battery&Country=CN&srchYearMonth=&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=0
>
> I've corresponded with a few, and prices are dropping.  Zeva 
> http://zeva.com.au/tech/headway/  showed the Headway as a strong product
> around $.55/WH.  YESA just emailed me about adding supercaps to a 15KWH
> pack, with BMS, 
>   

why would they add supercaps? a 15kWh pack should have plenty of power

> Who's going to be numero uno guinea pig to check out the warranty for these?
>   

maybe someone who needs a small yet powerful pack so the cost isn't 
disastrous if they disappoint somehow.

> I suggest we all start updating the chart:
> http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/LithiumIon#head-4378ab84eba85c7f8b72caab600c1d86dd3f0ca2
> with just one entry for each battery *type* (not every model number,)

you can't remove the models, they can be quite different in all relevant 
parameters. but a cell that has a comparable larger version can be 
omitted although I'm not sure it's that big a gain and might risk more 
than it gains. someone could decide that a brilliant cell was not relevant.

Dan



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:45:46 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Here is some email correspondence with Firefly.

Q--When and where can I buy one or 2 of these batteries & how much will they
cost?

A--"Most likely early 2009 at the earliest.  This battery is custom designed
for Class 8 truck market for the no-idle suite loads.  We are expecting late
summer we will be ramping up production to commercial level and hope to be
at a run rate of about  9,000 units a month in the early 2009 time frame. 
As you can expect with these batteries performing over 1100 cycles at 100%
depth of discharge and still cycling with over 90% of retained capacity we
have the major truck OEM?s and large fleets already standing in line.  As
for price we are going to be 25% plus over the premium AGM batteries on the
market.  I cannot give the specifics until we get our new equipment in place
for mass production so that we can assess scrap rates, process variables
etc. and the unknown cost of lead late this year.
Keep an eye on our website late summer as we move forward with establishing
our top tier distribution network"

Q--When and where can I buy one or 2 of these batteries? How much do they
cost? Any discounts for electric car clubs? Also, it seems that the specs
for actual batteries are not quite as good as what was anticipated??? They
seem to be heavier and larger than expected???
Do you expect them to be better as time goes on?

A--Hello,
 I am the product manager for Firefly Energy.  There might have been a
misunderstanding in the expectations of the Firefly Energy G31 when you
state larger and heavier than anticipated.  First the G31 is a BCI standard
for this size battery.  You are not allowed to make the battery smaller or
larger or it cannot be classified as a G31.  There are many BCI sizes that
Firefly will be developing over the next several years.  As far as weight.
Since the G31 has to be a standard size we opted to put as much energy as we
can in the given envelope and the Firefly battery is significantly lighter
that other G31 batteries in the 200 min  plus reserve capacity range.  The
specification performance posted to date is the first iteration of the G31. 
We fully expect the performance to increase significantly as we have two
more design iterations planned before commercial production begins late this
summer.

David Ginder
Product Manager
firefly energy
Office: 309-690-7540
Cell: 309-339-7390
Fax:309-690-7515
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/News-from-Firefly-tp15164997p15164997.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.




------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:55:22 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Here is some email correspondence with Firefly. 

Q--When and where can I buy one or 2 of these batteries & how much will they
cost? 

A--"Most likely early 2009 at the earliest.  This battery is custom designed
for Class 8 truck market for the no-idle suite loads.  We are expecting late
summer we will be ramping up production to commercial level and hope to be
at a run rate of about  9,000 units a month in the early 2009 time frame. 
As you can expect with these batteries performing over 1100 cycles at 100%
depth of discharge and still cycling with over 90% of retained capacity we
have the major truck OEM?s and large fleets already standing in line.  As
for price we are going to be 25% plus over the premium AGM batteries on the
market.  I cannot give the specifics until we get our new equipment in place
for mass production so that we can assess scrap rates, process variables
etc. and the unknown cost of lead late this year. 
Keep an eye on our website late summer as we move forward with establishing
our top tier distribution network" 

Q--When and where can I buy one or 2 of these batteries? How much do they
cost? Any discounts for electric car clubs? Also, it seems that the specs
for actual batteries are not quite as good as what was anticipated??? They
seem to be heavier and larger than expected??? 
Do you expect them to be better as time goes on? 

A--Hello, 
 I am the product manager for Firefly Energy.  There might have been a
misunderstanding in the expectations of the Firefly Energy G31 when you
state larger and heavier than anticipated.  First the G31 is a BCI standard
for this size battery.  You are not allowed to make the battery smaller or
larger or it cannot be classified as a G31.  There are many BCI sizes that
Firefly will be developing over the next several years.  As far as weight.
Since the G31 has to be a standard size we opted to put as much energy as we
can in the given envelope and the Firefly battery is significantly lighter
that other G31 batteries in the 200 min  plus reserve capacity range.  The
specification performance posted to date is the first iteration of the G31. 
We fully expect the performance to increase significantly as we have two
more design iterations planned before commercial production begins late this
summer. 

David Ginder 
Product Manager 
firefly energy 
Office: 309-690-7540 
Cell: 309-339-7390 
Fax:309-690-7515 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/News-from-Firefly-tp15165377p15165377.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.




------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: EV Pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  lifepo4 or lifeo4
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hello - can someone tell me the difference between lifepo4 and lifeo4? The
labels seem to be used interchangeably.  I would like to purchase a small
pack from Headway but they use the name life04. They have told me it's the
same as lithium iron phosphate, but is it?
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/lifepo4-or-lifeo4-tp15165679p15165679.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:19:20 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lifepo4 or lifeo4
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I've never heard of LiFeO4 as a separate chemistry; it's probably just
what they call LiFePO4.

Also, Ian Hooper already got and tested some Headway cells. They sure
look like standard LiFePO4, or something about as good.

He said he got weird results in the charge test, but I think it just
looks like the charge is highly affected by temperature, and his
charge current changed as his air conditioner turned on and off.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Jan 29, 2008 12:09 PM, EV Pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello - can someone tell me the difference between lifepo4 and lifeo4? The
> labels seem to be used interchangeably.  I would like to purchase a small
> pack from Headway but they use the name life04. They have told me it's the
> same as lithium iron phosphate, but is it?
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/lifepo4-or-lifeo4-tp15165679p15165679.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:28:04 -0800
From: Metric Mind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dale Ulan wrote:

> Maybe use an automotive-style speed sensor like the Siemens motors?
> Fine-pitch encoders are a PITA and seem to be a reliability problem
> whenever I talk to anyone using them.
> 
> -Dale

Dale,

Siemens motors use 64 teeth hall effect sensors (two, shifted
quarter teeth distance or 90 "electrical" degrees to determine
direction). From what I know its very robust set up, I deal
personally with these motors since 2000 and never had any issues, nor
I heard anyone else have troubles with these speed sensors.
Of course, processing software must also be very reliable.

I don't think Siemens would offer 10 years warranty on their motors
if speed sensors would not be as reliable as the rest of their motors.
(BTW top reliability of these motors may give a hint why they
cost that much).

Perhaps sensing implementation of people you talk to has dome design 
deficiency.

-- 
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:39:28 -0800
From: Metric Mind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
...
> why would they add supercaps? a 15kWh pack should have plenty of power

Battery capacity have no direct relation to its power. I had 96 crappy 
TS cells
in CRX and had to suplement it with capacitor bank precisely for the 
reason of low power, while capacity of 90Ah would have been plenty. Even 
half of it. But the power was so low that voltage sag prevented me from 
discharging at the rates I needed. Capacity was sure there but only if 
you load the pack to a light bulb...

A battery capacity is determined by amount of active material feeding 
chemical reaction.
A battery power is determined by reaction surface area (e.g. internal 
resistance).

-- 
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:20:02 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

What kind of '65 truck?

I been thinkin about a '65 chevy C-10 conversion,  just need to figure out 
how to lighten it up.  but i was thinking about the fiberglass body parts 
that could be used,  and even just sticking a S-10 transmission behind a 
warp 9 to maybe lighten up somemore.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock 
brakes)


> Ken;
>
> Great video !
> I can't wait to get my 65 truck on the road.
> Working on cosmetics now, with electrical assembly to start soon.
> With the 1200 Raptor, 156V of Odyssey PC1750s, 4.88 gears, and a ~ 2900#
> curb weight, this thing should get out of the hole pretty quick.
>



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:24:01 -0600
From: "R. Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Initial Battery Balancing Act
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:36:37 EST, you wrote:

>It is now obvious to me that my batteries are way out of balance.  I  bought 
>a $100 smart battery charger (Shumacher SC6500A) and tried to use it to  
>charge each battery individually in an effort to get them balanced.  After  
>charging them each individually until the charger said they were 100% charged, 
>I  
>checked them the next morning and the built in battery tester (no load)  
>showed 
>the range of charge to be from 12.5V ("75% charged") to 12.9V (100%)  charged 
>when set on the AGM setting.  While under charging this  charger says they are 
>100% when the voltage reaches 13.5V.  
  My Schumacher's LED reads 100% long before the charger is finished.
It will still be putting 14-16 volts into the battery.  I have to wait
until it has gone through it's full cycle and has dropped to the final
13.2 float charge, or the battery is not fully charged.

  R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica (Ford Escort)  
http://evalbum.austinev.org/702
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/custom_motors/Hack+vs+Husted/

  This machine had been garaged for 17 years.  I have 
upgraded and made it operable.  Tabitha, my daughter, 
named it, "Pikachu".  It's yellow and black, electric 
and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
  




------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:57:06 -0800
From: "EV Manny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin' Video Footage
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thanks EVeryone for submitting pictures and videos. Keep them coming.

The Barona Dragstrip people told us there were close to 500 paying
attendees that went through their gates. That was better than some of
their gas burning races on sunny days. They were so impressed with the
turnout for our electric-exclusive EVent on what was forecasted as a
rain-out that they want us back. They know that attendance would have
been at least double had we had our normal temperate weather. On
Sunday major roads to the dragstrip were closed due to flooding and
mud-slides. Yet people were still showing up.

We're considering having Day 2 in late May, this will allow the
sponsors and participants and spectators to enjoy EVen more vehicles,
fun, and record runs. Hopefully I don't blow my car up again...

Here are the latest video and still pix including what I could find
online for the BBB :
All available at
http://www.ElectricDragin.com/BBBvsED.html and at the NEDRA site.
or individually:
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95275
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95280
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95282
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95283
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95285
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95587
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95591
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95593
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95597
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95599
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95604
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95608
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95803
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95806
http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95818


On Jan 26, 2008 8:24 PM, EV Manny  wrote:
> In sequential order are all the videos posted yesterday and today at
> http://www.ElectricDragin.com/BBBvsED.html
> My favorite has got to be the cardboard E-Box, the one from AC
> Propulsion isn't too shabby either.
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/94710
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/94737
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95032
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95034
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95035
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95036
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95038
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95039
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95040
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95041
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95042
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95043
>
> http://www.kyte.tv/channels/view.html?uri=channels/31581/95044


-- 
Manny

http://evalbum.com/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com



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