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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: High voltage systems (Dale Ulan)
   2. Re: News from Firefly (Lawrence Rhodes)
   3. Re: Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)
      (Pestka, Dennis J)
   4. Re: Initial Battery Balancing Act (Roland Wiench)
   5. Re: High voltage systems (henry buehler)
   6. Re: News from Firefly (shred)
   7. Re: High voltage systems (Ryan Stotts)
   8. Re: News from Firefly (Chuck Homic)
   9. Re: High voltage systems (Chuck Homic)
  10. the one that got away (K O)
  11. Re: News from Firefly (shred)
  12. Re: What to use for a 144v indicator light? (Phil Marino)
  13. Re: Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)
      (robert harder)
  14. Re: High voltage systems (Ryan Stotts)
  15. Re: High voltage systems (Chuck Homic)
  16. Re: High voltage systems (Roger Stockton)
  17. Re: News from Firefly (Dan Frederiksen)
  18. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Dan Frederiksen)
  19. Re: High voltage systems (Dan Frederiksen)
  20. Re: News from Firefly ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  21. Re: News from Firefly (Morgan LaMoore)
  22. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Ryan Stotts)
  23. Re: What to use for a 144v indicator light? (Cor van de Water)
  24. Re: High voltage systems (Rick Beebe)
  25. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Idgit)
  26. Re: Cooty 2seat NEV. (Lock Hughes)
  27. Cable routing in air-cooled VW (Frank Schmitt)
  28. Re: High voltage systems (Morgan LaMoore)
  29. Re: High voltage systems (Chuck Homic)
  30. Re: News from Firefly ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  31. Group 34 options? (Frank Schmitt)
  32. phases in motors ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  33. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  34. EV Talk Radio ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  35. Re: High voltage systems (Jeremy Green)
  36. Re: Electric Dragin' and BBB Video Footage (EV Manny)
  37. Re: phases in motors (Frank Schmitt)
  38. Re: High voltage systems (was:  my first post to this EVDL)
      (Cor van de Water)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:50:00 -0700
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

>Perhaps sensing implementation of people you talk to has dome design
>deficiency.

The guys I talk to doing VFD's are usually doing it for oilfield
applications
up here (I'm in Alberta, Canada, where oil is pretty big business). Anyways,
many of these industrial VFD's use little industrial encoders that seem to
have a lot of bearing problems. The Siemens motor design appears to be very
good, in my opinion - very similar in design to the 60-2 wheel used in most
automobiles these days. Those are robust, and in my mind, the Siemens ones
should be, too.

I have a pair of Solectria BLDC's with hall effect sensors, and I'm not
too crazy about the reliability of them. A slight overspeed and the magnet
flies apart, then the controller screws up - it's all simple logic, no
brains - and the motor commutates wrong, then the controller blows up,
and the motor stops very rapidly.

-Dale



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:03:39 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

I think that there is a misconception concerning battery weight.  All things
being equal if you use the firefly technology in the most efficient way it
will be the same weight and size but contain more energy.  That's what is
meant by lighter. Like replacing a lead pack with half the weight in lithium
but doubling the range.  Lawrence Rhodes.....



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:19:44 -0600
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

1965 Datsun 320 Pickup.
2180# curb weight, 3963# GVW
I picked this particular truck because it's light, but will hold close
to a ton.
I'm trying to keep the added weight to a minimum to get decent
performance.
Should be ~ 2900# after conversion.

http://www.evalbum.com/1366

Dennis
Elsberry, MO

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Creel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)

What kind of '65 truck?

I been thinkin about a '65 chevy C-10 conversion,  just need to figure
out how to lighten it up.  but i was thinking about the fiberglass body
parts that could be used,  and even just sticking a S-10 transmission
behind a warp 9 to maybe lighten up somemore.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (was Poor man's line lock
brakes)


> Ken;
>
> Great video !
> I can't wait to get my 65 truck on the road.
> Working on cosmetics now, with electrical assembly to start soon.
> With the 1200 Raptor, 156V of Odyssey PC1750s, 4.88 gears, and a ~ 
> 2900# curb weight, this thing should get out of the hole pretty quick.
>





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:28:48 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Initial Battery Balancing Act
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Many years ago, we could purchase batteries as a match set.  If we specific 
that we want the battery pack to be balance, meaning the voltage of each 
cell to be in with 0.01 volt of each other, the specific gravity to be with 
in 0.001 sg of each cell, and the a load test to be in a specific range for 
a number of seconds, the battery manufacturer will do this tests as 
requested.

Many of these cells lasted me over 10 years.  Pull the grids out of the 
cases, replace the electrolyte with the same specific gravity reading that 
was taken out, clean out the cases, replace some of the separators and 
replace the battery plates in three cells.  The batteries lasted me another 
5 years to 1990.

The next set was the 235 AH 6 volt Exides, that the only test was done, is a 
automatic voltage test as it came done the line, and if the battery was at 
any voltage between 6.3 or higher, it will be accepted.

Before picking up these batteries from a local dealer, I brought my own volt 
meter that can read out to 0.001 volts. I pick out the best 30 batteries out 
of a pallet load of 50.  The batteries were about 2 weeks old from the 
manufacturer, so the battery voltage read about 6.330 to 6.400 in this group 
of 50.   I pick out 30 batteries that read 6.349 to 6.351 which was close 
enough at the time.

Also I take note of the battery dates.  I found 10 of the batteries in the 
group had different dates, and found out there were older and been setting 
at some warehouse for a time. These batteries lasted me for 8 years to 1998.

I then bought my next set from a battery dealer that mostly deal in 
industrial batteries, but started to furnish other deep cycle batteries.  I 
knew this dealer for over 30 years and for the price of $30.00 for a 6 volt 
220 AH deep cycle battery I took the best 30 batteries out of a group of 
100.  These were made by the Globe Union Company.  Had only push on tops 
that always leak when charging and even while setting.  These batteries only 
lasted me four years to 2002. The battery voltages were more than 5 percent 
apart on many batteries.

In 2002 a new battery dealer started to handle Trojan batteries.  I did a 
lot of research on the there 6 volt deep cycle batteries.  Down loaded info 
on Trojan, email an call directly to the Trojan engineers, contacted 
Trojan's distributor's for info.

I requested that the batteries had a seal locking type cap with a O-ring, 
the specific gravity should be at least to 1.277 sg, not 1.265 that my last 
set had, the setting voltage should be at least to 6.370 plus or minus 0.001 
volt.

Trojan said, there process is automatic, and do not stop the assembly line 
to balance a set of batteries.  They said they will sent me a pallet load of 
batteries on there battery truck and I can perform these test.  The battery 
truck will then take the remaining 20 batteries to the local dealer.  So 
that's what I did.

I got 28 batteries that were 0.000 volt of each other and two that were 
0.001 of each other. Six years later and yesterday, I did a voltage test 
after 4 hours after charging, the battery voltages range from 6.54 to 6.56 
volts.  Two of them had only 0.02 volts between them.

Is this what you call a balance pack or what?

Roland

 



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:44:35 -0600
From: "henry buehler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I just had the idea of a coil that would discharge when a light pulse was
sent to it through a fiber optic strand from the controler.

On 1/29/08, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps sensing implementation of people you talk to has dome design
> >deficiency.
>
> The guys I talk to doing VFD's are usually doing it for oilfield
> applications
> up here (I'm in Alberta, Canada, where oil is pretty big business).
> Anyways,
> many of these industrial VFD's use little industrial encoders that seem to
> have a lot of bearing problems. The Siemens motor design appears to be
> very
> good, in my opinion - very similar in design to the 60-2 wheel used in
> most
> automobiles these days. Those are robust, and in my mind, the Siemens ones
> should be, too.
>
> I have a pair of Solectria BLDC's with hall effect sensors, and I'm not
> too crazy about the reliability of them. A slight overspeed and the magnet
> flies apart, then the controller screws up - it's all simple logic, no
> brains - and the motor commutates wrong, then the controller blows up,
> and the motor stops very rapidly.
>
> -Dale
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:32:22 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Yes you're right.
I didn't ask Firefly the questions. 
This was done by a fellow ATC club member.
I do realize that a group 31 battery is going to be a certain size
regardless of the technology utilized.
I do maintain that their group 31 size battery is a bit heaver then I had
anticipated though.
Neal

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> I think that there is a misconception concerning battery weight.  All
> things
> being equal if you use the firefly technology in the most efficient way it
> will be the same weight and size but contain more energy.  That's what is
> meant by lighter. Like replacing a lead pack with half the weight in
> lithium
> but doubling the range.  Lawrence Rhodes.....
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/News-from-Firefly-tp15164997p15171082.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:56:14 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Metric Mind wrote:

> 'Course I got motor. Which one are you talking about?
> So, which motor do you want Ryan? I'm an engineer, so
> parameters (numbers) please.

Think about the 8" and 9" ADC and WarP motors.  Consider their price
and their availability.  We need something like that in an AC flavor.
Relatively low cost and plentiful and suited to EV use.  Something
that would be worthwhile to make the AC Zilla be able to drive.

We've suddenly got the inverter.  Now we just need a suitable motor.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:52:05 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I think that there is a misconception concerning battery weight.  All things
> being equal if you use the firefly technology in the most efficient way it
> will be the same weight and size but contain more energy.  That's what is
> meant by lighter. 
I agree.  If the specs are true, 700 cycles to 100% DOD means you don't 
have to overload on the lead to get the range you want.  If the specs 
are true, the nearly-zero peukert will mean no de-rating the Ah to get 
"real world" energy.  (I noticed the C/20 capacity is 1293 minutes, so 
that's about 107Ah @ 20 hours, so there is *some* peukert.)  This means, 
if the specs are true, you could probably get by with half the lead with 
the fireflies.  I don't know what "premium AGM" they are going to 
compare their price to but if it's 25% more than an optima, for example, 
that would be a good deal.  At 350 whr/mi, you could get a 40 mile range 
with 12 of these, at 850 lbs.  Uh, if the specs are true. :)



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:04:28 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Think about the 8" and 9" ADC and WarP motors.  Consider their price
> and their availability.  We need something like that in an AC flavor.
> Relatively low cost and plentiful and suited to EV use.  Something
> that would be worthwhile to make the AC Zilla be able to drive.
>
> We've suddenly got the inverter.  Now we just need a suitable motor.
>   
We've got what now??  Otmar said "don't hold your breath," not "ready to 
go."



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:12:15 -0800 (PST)
From: K O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] the one that got away
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

There has been some buzz lately after a RAV ev was returned to the Palo Alto 
dealer that it might be made available to an instantaneously formed waiting 
list via auction.  The sales guy just called and told me Toyota had already 
reclaimed it.  He also said Toyota is going to concentrate on 'plug-ins', 
meaning hybrids. One step backwards.
Gentlemen: resume your battery discussions.

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:26:26 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Here the mention $400.00 each.
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/Firefly%20Energy%20Oasis%20Trucking%20Industry%20Technical%20White%20Paper.pdf

Chuck Homic wrote:
> 
> 
>  I don't know what "premium AGM" they are going to 
> compare their price to but if it's 25% more than an optima, for example, 
> that would be a good deal.  At 350 whr/mi, you could get a 40 mile range 
> with 12 of these, at 850 lbs.  Uh, if the specs are true. :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/News-from-Firefly-tp15164997p15172043.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:37:13 -0500
From: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What to use for a 144v indicator light?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


You could try putting a zener diode ( maybe 30V or so, or two 12V or 15V diodes 
in series) in series with the bulb.  That way the bulb will see about 120 to 
125 volts, and should have a normal life.  Assuming it's a 5 watt bulb, a 1 
watt zener should be OK.  A two watter ( or, two 1-watters in series) would 
probably be safer and run cooler, though.  

Phil Marino

> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:08:01 -0700
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] What to use for a 144v indicator light?
> 
> I am trying to be as safe as possible with my car heater heater.    I
> would like to have a bulb running off the same wires as the ceramic
> space heater element to tell me when  it is on - thus helping me prevent
> a welded relay from melting the car down to a pile of lead.  
> I have a small panel next to the heater switch that will work well for
> putting in a little indicator bulb.   I have tried a 120v bulb in a
> small socket meant for candelabras - maybe not the most robust bulb, I
> don't know...   It blew out after ~ 10 minutes of being lit.   My car is
> 144v, and of course fully charged, puts out ~156 volts, with the voltage
> varying as speed changes.    Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks all!
> I just sold my gasser today, so my wife and I are planning to live only
> with the electric car, and mass transit/rental cars for out of town
> travel.   Wish me luck!
> 
> Andy
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your 
"fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:38:22 +0000
From: robert harder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Antique Truck EV's (was: Sparrow Tire Melt-down!)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


you'll need to lighten it up a lot for an s10 trans to survive in a 65 chevy, 
check out this sight for fiberglass options for lots of vehicles including the 
65 chevy truck as much fiberglass as you want 
http://www.usbody.com/WhereQualityComesFirst.htm

> 
> What kind of '65 truck?
> 
> I been thinkin about a '65 chevy C-10 conversion,  just need to figure out 
> how to lighten it up.  but i was thinking about the fiberglass body parts 
> that could be used,  and even just sticking a S-10 transmission behind a 
> warp 9 to maybe lighten up somemore.
> ----- Original Message ----- 


_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:14:55 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> We've got what now??  Otmar said "don't hold your breath," not "ready to go."


Scroll down to the "Insight EV"

http://cafeelectric.com/other.php



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:22:48 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> We've got what now??  Otmar said "don't hold your breath," not "ready to go."
>>     
>
>
> Scroll down to the "Insight EV"
>
> http://cafeelectric.com/other.php
>   
I stand corrected.  Otmar actually said "It is a back burner project and 
is still nowhere near ready for production. We're talking years at this 
rate."

Okay then. :)



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:29:51 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ryan Stotts wrote:

> Think about the 8" and 9" ADC and WarP motors.  Consider
> their price and their availability.  We need something like
> that in an AC flavor.
> Relatively low cost and plentiful and suited to EV use.
> Something that would be worthwhile to make the AC Zilla be
> able to drive.
>
> We've suddenly got the inverter.  Now we just need a suitable motor.

OK, so as someone else pointed out, we don't actually have said inverter.

But, let's assume for a moment that we do.  A Z1K runs about $2k, so it stands 
to reason that a tri-Zilla would run about $6k, perhaps $5k assuming some 
savings in packaging, etc.

At the present time, we have a $2k DC controller that mates to $1.5-2k DC 
motors that are actually suited to forklift duty, not on-road EV use.

Why would it be reasonable to expect an AC motor suited for on-road EV use, and 
to be mated to a $5-6k controller to cost the same or less than the DC motor?

Is the reasoning that if a DC system runs about $4k, then an AC system should 
cost similarly, and so if the inverter costs $5k, the motors should come with 
$1k cheques wrapped around them? ;^>

Check Victor's site for what an AC motor suited to EV use costs.  We might, as 
Victor observed, prefer to be able to pick up disposable-quality AC motors for 
our EVs for $500 at WallyWorld, but that doesn't mean it will, or should, be 
that way.

Seems more reasonable to me to expect to pay about the same for one's AC motor 
as for one's AC controller (and I think Victor's prices bear this out).  The 
only exception I can see is if soemone does as Lee has hinted time and again, 
and that is design a controller specifically to use an off-the-shelf industrial 
AC motor.  The motor won't be suitable for EV use, but it'll be a lot less 
costly than one that is.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:20:32 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

how much does a 'premium' 31G AGM cost?
that should give us an indication of the price

quick look around the net yeilds prices around 200$ for 100Ah AGM. so 
add premium and his 25% and 299$ retail isn't unrealistic

you can ask him i he means 299 retail and 180$ wholesale



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:56:44 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Metric Mind wrote:
> Battery capacity have no direct relation to its power. I had 96 crappy 
> TS cells in CRX and had to suplement it with capacitor bank precisely for the 
> reason of low power,

I am aware of the difference between capacity and power. let me 
rephrase; if 15kWh worth of a battery is not enough power I might choose 
another battery rather than try some costly hybrid solution. In other 
words, if the additional cost of supercaps isn't better spent on the 
battery then I would look for an alternative.



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:50:21 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Scroll down to the "Insight EV"
>
> http://cafeelectric.com/other.php
>   

anyone know what that is?
http://cafeelectric.com/insight/Conversion/InsightTemp-Pages/Image20.html

electronics from an EV1? and why is it there



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:34:23 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>In a message dated 1/29/2008 5:03:09 PM Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>I don't know what "premium AGM" they are going to  
>compare their price to but if it's 25% more than an optima, for example,  
>that would be a good deal.  At 350 whr/mi, you could get a 40 mile  range 
>with 12 of these, at 850 lbs.  Uh, if the specs are true.  :)
 
 
 

I would probably compare them to the Hawker PC2150 Available today at  $305 
dollars through batterystore.com. The Hawker is a group31, 99.4 Ah @ 20 hr  
rate, 2150 cranking amps, 75 lbs, Military durability with an undeniable  
performance and quality record. Sure you have to get them shipped but some of  
you on 
the left and east coast might be close to their locations. Fireflys  offering 
is a microscopic increment better by spec only and although its not  
vaporware, did you ever see one? Considering their price is almost $100 higher 
I  
don't see any value here. Unless I'm missing  something.
Rick MIller
 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:07:54 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Jan 29, 2008 7:34 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> the left and east coast might be close to their locations. Fireflys  offering
> is a microscopic increment better by spec only and although its not
> vaporware, did you ever see one? Considering their price is almost $100 
> higher I
> don't see any value here. Unless I'm missing  something.
> Rick MIller

They're claiming 700 cycles at 100% DoD and almost no Puckert's. If
their claims are true, they will be significantly better than the
Hawkers because you would get much more usable capacity per cycle,
even though the 20Ah rates are about the same.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:15:14 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Let's say for example that somewhere in that list is the perfect EV
battery.  Cheap, powerful, and available.  OK.  Now we have the
battery.  What do you do about the BMS?

You've just purchased 75,000 18650 cells.  How do you plan on
assembling your pack?

Our magic battery will arrive.  What about the two other issues?



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:14:38 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What to use for a 144v indicator light?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Or use a neon bulb plus series resistor, or your
bulb with a series resistor. If your bulb is 5W 
then it draws a current of 5/120 = 40 mA.
To drop approx 30V at 40 mA you need a resistor of
approx 750 Ohms in series with your bulb.
That should be a 2Watt resistor, as
30V x 40mA = 1200mW


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What to use for a 144v indicator light?


You could try putting a zener diode ( maybe 30V or so, or two 12V or 15V diodes 
in series) in series with the bulb.  That way the bulb will see about 120 to 
125 volts, and should have a normal life.  Assuming it's a 5 watt bulb, a 1 
watt zener should be OK.  A two watter ( or, two 1-watters in series) would 
probably be safer and run cooler, though.  

Phil Marino

> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:08:01 -0700
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] What to use for a 144v indicator light?
> 
> I am trying to be as safe as possible with my car heater heater.    I
> would like to have a bulb running off the same wires as the ceramic 
> space heater element to tell me when  it is on - thus helping me 
> prevent a welded relay from melting the car down to a pile of lead.
> I have a small panel next to the heater switch that will work well for
> putting in a little indicator bulb.   I have tried a 120v bulb in a
> small socket meant for candelabras - maybe not the most robust bulb, I
> don't know...   It blew out after ~ 10 minutes of being lit.   My car is
> 144v, and of course fully charged, puts out ~156 volts, with the voltage
> varying as speed changes.    Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks all!
> I just sold my gasser today, so my wife and I are planning to live 
> only with the electric car, and mass transit/rental cars for out of town
> travel.   Wish me luck!
> 
> Andy
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your 
"fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:19:21 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Roger Stockton wrote:
> But, let's assume for a moment that we do.  A Z1K runs about $2k, so
> it stands to reason that a tri-Zilla would run about $6k, perhaps $5k
> assuming some savings in packaging, etc.
> 
> At the present time, we have a $2k DC controller that mates to
> $1.5-2k DC motors that are actually suited to forklift duty, not
> on-road EV use.
> 
> Why would it be reasonable to expect an AC motor suited for on-road
> EV use, and to be mated to a $5-6k controller to cost the same or
> less than the DC motor?

What is it about AC that makes everything so expensive? Why does it 
stand to reason that a tri-Zilla has to be $6k and not $3k?

--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:24:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Idgit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Thanks Victor.

Could you give a quick rehash of how capacitors help battery packs, in lay
terms?  I get electron flow in circuits, magnetic fields and motors, but
caps evade me.  How do they help in EV power and when?  I know you have a
lot of experience using them, and the fact that the Yesa manufacturer
offered them up in my pack design surprised me.  Maybe they are soon coming
as a standard booster, do you think so?

Your words are much appreciated,
Idgit


Battery capacity have no direct relation to its power. I had 96 crappy 
TS cells
in CRX and had to suplement it with capacitor bank precisely for the 
reason of low power
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/100%2B-new-Li-Battery-companies-tp15162187p15174289.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:25:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cooty 2seat NEV.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I wonder if the Chinese build their cars like their scooters - parts
almost completely outsourced?  So lots of "different" brands with many
identical parts (and so they "look alike"?)

Anyone here know if there are any centres for auto production in China?
Several may be? Just curious. Pretty sure Yongkang is still the largest
center for EV production on the planet... 

Last time I checked, Yongkang (pop.600,000) had over three hundred
companies all assembling 2- and 3-wheelers, gas and electric. Today,
eight percent of all google hits for "yongkang" include the words
"electric scooter"... 15% of the listings on Made-In-China and Alibaba
for Yongkang manufacturers included "ATV" or "electric vehicle" in
their products (and that's only counting the companies offering whole
vehicles).

So I wonder where Yongkang is going in the EV business.

The Yongkang Success Motor Co is now offering to make a 5Kw 72v DC
brushless hub motor as a 12 inch "car wheel":
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/successmotor

Yongkang Yumei now offers a Zebra/Cooty/Bandit/?-style car:
http://www.yumeivehicle.com/

And Jinghang now shows a few larger EVs:
http://www.jinghangcn.com/electric_cart.htm
(Sparrow owners might chuckle at the bottom of that page)

tks
Lock
Toronto


--- EVDL Administrator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2008 at 9:00, Myles Twete wrote:
> > Their "Bandit" looks like a Zap Xebra to me.
> > Where do they get off renaming a car?
> > I mean, can a dealer buy a Porsche and relabel it a Zepher for new
> sale?
> 
> I didn't look that closely at the Bandit to judge whether it's the
> same as 
> the Xebra.  It might be similar.  In any case, it's sourced from some
> 
> Chinese manufacturer.  Unless one US vendor (Zap?) has an exclusive
> right to 
> a car, others can probably sell it too, and call it whatever they
> want.
> 
> This is nothing new.  For example, 15-20 years ago, substantially the
> same 
> car was sold as a Mitsubishi Expo and a Dodge Colt Vista.  (I
> remember 
> thinking at the time that they'd be good conversion candidates. I had
> the 
> idea of making the 4wd version into a true hybrid, but never found
> one at a 
> price I was willing to pay.)  
> 
> The current Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix are also effectively
> identical; I 
> think they're even built in the same factory.  The same was true for
> the Geo 
> Prizm and Toyota Corolla several years ago.  
> 
> So, I take it that it's just a matter of negotiating the rights.
> 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this happen as Chinese
> manufacturers 
> put more and more cars, especially EVs, on US and Canadian roads.  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator


      Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:12 -0800
From: Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Cable routing in air-cooled VW
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I'm converting a '69 VW Fastback (like this one: 
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2205469) 
. Like all air-cooled VWs, it lacks the usual exhaust tunnel through  
which to route the high-current wiring from front to rear.

There's a frame tube, but it's closed at the bottom and already has a  
shift rod and two fuel lines running through it, plus cables for four  
heater controls, both sides of the emergency brake, the accelerator  
and the clutch. The good news is that everything but the shift rod  
(and the very front of the clutch and accelerator) is in a conduit:

http://www.vwispwest.com/wiring.php?pic=wiring

There's an access panel under the rear and at the front end of the  
tunnel.

I'm not sure it will be practical to zip tie 2/0 cable out of the way  
of the shift rod. So what I'm thinking is to use a couple of copper or  
aluminum bars covered in heat shrink tubing, possibly joined together  
with another layer of heat shrink tubing and some kind of plastic  
spacer.

Surely other air-cooled VWs must have the same issue. What are some  
approaches that have worked?

Thanks,

-Frank



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:01:01 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Jan 29, 2008 8:19 PM, Rick Beebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is it about AC that makes everything so expensive? Why does it
> stand to reason that a tri-Zilla has to be $6k and not $3k?

A DC motor only needs one chopper. An AC motor needs three choppers.
That means it requires about three times as much power electronics for
the same power output. Thus, if a 1-chopper Zilla Z1k-LV costs $2000,
a 3-chopper Tri-Zilla Z1k-LV would cost roughly $6000.

Three times the power electronics also means three times the gate
drive circuitry, almost three times the PCB area, almost three times
the labor costs.

The AC motor isn't actually intrinsically more expensive than DC
motors. AC induction motors don't have to worry about commutators or
brushes; just windings and a rotor. If it was designed to be
manufactured cheaply and was mass-produced, AC motors might even be
cheaper than DC!

The problem is that (EV-suitable) AC motors aren't mass produced. The
only reason we can get DC motors so cheap is because of the forklift
industry. We're getting the benefit of the past several decades spent
improving DC motors and driving down costs. And now people want that
to happen instantly with AC. It'll probably happen someday, but not
very fast.

There's no way the EV community can do enough conversions to make this
an appealing market. Start-up and design costs would be in the
millions. Even with thousands of people doing AC conversions, prices
would still be too high.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:12:03 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rick Beebe wrote:
>
> What is it about AC that makes everything so expensive? Why does it 
> stand to reason that a tri-Zilla has to be $6k and not $3k?
>   
3 phases would be my guess.



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:19:37 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] News from Firefly
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>In a message dated 1/29/2008 8:16:46 PM  Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>They're claiming 700  cycles at 100% DoD and almost no Puckert's. If
>their claims are true,  they will be significantly better than the
>Hawkers because you would get  much more usable capacity per cycle,
>even though the 20Ah rates are about  the same.  



Ok I see that now. Hawker only specs 400 cycles at 80%. That might be worth  
$100.
     Rick



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489



------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:28:53 -0800
From: Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Group 34 options?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Other than Optima Yellow Tops, what are the options for Group 34-sized  
EV batteries?

Are the Optima QC problems widespread, or just a few bad apples  
reaching a few vocal individuals?

Thanks,

-Frank



------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:38:56 -0500 (EST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] phases in motors
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Part of the reason for higher cost of AC system is that they are three phase 
systems
and need to triplicate all controls.? So why are single phase AC motors not
used? Are they more inefficient?

Also DC motors are AC motors internally.
But are they single phase, three phase or what, or it depends on the number of
poles?

Thanks for answers to these technical questions

Joseph

 



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:40:15 GMT
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Pack Builders...


http://www.mpoweruk.com/

http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/

http://www.modenergy.com/index.html

http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=9

http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html

http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/

http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm







_____________________________________________________________
Save hundreds on getting a Web Design Degree. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vCsYTOOnhI8ijXwXeHI6LFIjPa2TttHMxfzAVaCM0R2WKon/





------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:38:01 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] EV Talk Radio
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

i was recently on the Radio with 
Harry Douglas of "Car Concerns with Harry Douglas"
to talk about EV's

Here are the recorded interviews with the commercials edited out.

http://evtransportal.com/mediainterviews.html

Harry has become very EV friendly.

Tomorrow morning January 30th he's
agreed to interview Andreas Langley- the film maker who
recently posted the footage he shot of John Wayland and other EV Racers, at 8 
am Mountain time, 
10 am Eastern. 

The show can be heard over the internet here;
http://www.carconcerns.blogspot.com/
and here; 
http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=48329&cmd=tc

You can also call into the show, to ask questions.

Harry is also going to interview Mike and (or) Paula Moore
of Ampmobile Conversions during tomorrow's EV hour from
10 am to 11 am Eastern time

Please, if you can, listen to the show and support these
members of the EV community.

Peter Oppewall
Editor, http://EVtransPortal.com





------------------------------

Message: 35
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:23:00 -0500
From: Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


On Jan 29, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
> anyone know what that is?
> http://cafeelectric.com/insight/Conversion/InsightTemp-Pages/Image20.html
>
> electronics from an EV1? and why is it there
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


I would say electronics from a Honda Insight :)



------------------------------

Message: 36
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:25:13 -0800
From: "EV Manny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin' and BBB Video Footage
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Latest Video was nicely produced courtesy of http://www.ELMoto.Net -
The Electric Motorcycle Information Network

http://www.kyte.tv/ch/31581-bbbvsed#uri=channels/31581/95919


On Jan 29, 2008 11:57 AM, EV Manny wrote:
> Thanks EVeryone for submitting pictures and videos. Keep them coming.
>

-- 
Manny

http://evalbum.com/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com



------------------------------

Message: 37
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:30:53 -0800
From: Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] phases in motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

On Jan 29, 2008, at 19:38 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Part of the reason for higher cost of AC system is that they are  
> three phase systems
> and need to triplicate all controls.  So why are single phase AC  
> motors not
> used? Are they more inefficient?

A few reasons, none of which are deal-killers, but all of which add  
up to it being impractical:

1. Single-phase motors have torque pulses, not unlike a single- 
cylinder engine. It's not too much of a problem at high speeds, but  
at low speeds it would be noticeable.

2. Single-phase motors don't self-start. Typically they use some kind  
of a hack (such as a small, temporary second phase generated by a  
capacitor) to overcome this. If your EV had some nonzero "idle speed"  
this might not be a problem.

5. EV-sized single-phase motors are hard to find.

4. To create a sine wave, you need to reverse the polarity. Unless  
you use a double-voltage pack with a center tap, you need one pair of  
switches connected to each wire of the motor. A three-phase  
controller has only one more pair of switches and has none of the  
disadvantages listed here.

> Also DC motors are AC motors internally.
> But are they single phase, three phase or what, or it depends on  
> the number of
> poles?

That's a simple question with a very complex answer. AC motors have  
phases in order to create a rotating magnetic field. DC motors have a  
stationary magnetic field.

What both AC and DC motors try to do is to create an electrical  
current in the rotor that is at a right angle to the magnetic field  
created by the stator. DC motors do this conductively, with a fixed  
field in the stator and a commutator that only powers those rotor  
windings that are near 90 degrees from the stator field.

AC motors used in EVs do this inductively: the different phases  
create a rotating magnetic field in the stator, and by carefully  
letting the rotor turn slightly slower than the rotating field, it  
induces a current in the rotor (much like a garden-variety  
transformer). Getting this current to be close to 90 degrees from the  
stator field, all the while rotating at several thousand RPM,   
involves some complicated math called vector control.

HTH,

-Frank



------------------------------

Message: 38
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:35:42 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems (was:  my first post to this
        EVDL)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

There are over a million 500V AC systems driving around,
inside all those 2004+ Toyota Prii.
(Their battery is only 200V, they pump it up with a high
power bi-directional DC/DC converter)

My own EV uses a 700V AC drive, though I am feeding it
"only" 312V like all other US Electricar S10 trucks.
Originally this EV had the Hughes Dolphin controller,
a predecessor of the EV1 drive (this EV is from 1994)
but mine was re-converted with a WaveDriver controller
as a demo object for PG&E, offering V2G (Vehicle to Grid)
as the high power charging that the WaveDriver offers is
bi-directional, it can pump battery power back into the
electricity grid at the same rate as it can into the
motor....

I may hop up the voltage when I go for a new pack,
dependent on whether I can get a good deal or that I
leave a new pack up to the next owner of this EE's wet
dream of experimentation.

My controller uses rather conventional components, for
example two series connected banks of 400V capacitors
to charge each up to 350V at 700V DC input.
Due to the three-phase operation, the ripple is rather
small and the capacitors do not need to be very large,
still there are about 6 capacitors, each slightly smaller
than a coke can.
The remaining space is divided between 6 IGBTs and two
large PCBs with control logic.
And of course the incoming DC bus and outgoing AC bus.
(incoming and outgoing defined as in motoring mode, in
charging mode this all reverses)

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Metric Mind
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] High voltage systems (was: my first post to this EVDL)

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2008 at 11:40, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
>> as electronics designed for EV use become more available you will see 
>> pack voltage rise a lot. towards 1000v
> 
> I'd be very surprised to see this kind of voltage in EVs.  I'm no 
> engineer, but from what I've seen, at that voltage level 
> semiconductors and other components start getting expensive, and 
> insulation becomes critical.  There are also perceived, if not real, safety 
> concerns.
> 
> I think voltages in the 300-400 range are likely, indeed already 
> exist, but not much above that.  I could be wrong, though.

You probably are ;-)

FWIW, I'm adding high voltage AC inverters to the line of units I have.
For high power and low current (<300 battery amps) application standard EV bus 
voltage (650VDC) is used, it's pretty common. 200kW inverters I'll be getting 
next month (EVI-200) will take up to 900VDC in max.
Motors are designed for that voltage. 350V is medium voltage for AC systems. 
65...140V inverters formerly made by Siemens are no longer in production.

BRUSA has line of 960VDC input AC systems for long time; same applies for their 
line of DC-DC converters.

MES' standard Z5 Zebra battery is configurable in series/parallel config with 
570VDC output in series. This is standard option made specifically because HV 
systems are gaining acceptance for obvious advantages that still outweighing 
[real or perceived] shortcomings.

At least 5 people working on high voltage AC drive based conversions (myself 
included) and we will see how it plays out.

Now, this has little to do with DC systems, where it is simpler to use low(er) 
voltage and high current motors to gain power.
So if David thought mostly about those, he is right - it is unlikely they will 
ever get above 350VDC. Simply no need.

Of course, DC machine gains power by increasing torque on the shaft, while AC 
ones - by raising RPM at which decent torque is still maintained (and this is 
possible because higher battery voltage to fight motor's BEMF is available), 
but we're not about to debate AC vs DC again. My only point was that >500VDC 
voltage in a vehicle is not that unusual as might be perceived, and insulation 
requirements for 350V systems vs. 500V ones are not that much different.
Close to 900V you use thicker insulation and more spacing to avoid arc over, 
but basic wiring is still the same. And, far easier to bend/route battery 
cabling :-)

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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