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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: I want it all! (prius conversion) (EVDL Administrator)
   2. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Dan Frederiksen)
   3. Re: Tesla to do gas/electric hybrids (Dan Frederiksen)
   4.  battery tab welding (minhd)
   5. Re: Does anyone have any comments about my motor mounts?
      (Mike Willmon)
   6. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies..... and WTF CCS is used
      for ?? (Jukka J?rvinen)
   7. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Tom Parker)
   8. Re: I want it all! (prius conversion) (tomgocze)
   9. Re: Does anyone have any comments about my motor mounts?
      (Josh Creel)
  10. Re: I want it all! (prius conversion)Why Not? (Bob Rice)
  11. Re: I want it all! (prius conversion) (Dan Frederiksen)
  12. Re: Wave solder machine (Lee Hart)
  13. Re: battery tab welding (Roland Wiench)
  14.  Does anyone have any comments about my motor mounts?
      (Jeff Shanab)
  15. Re: Buddy pair batt selection. (EVDL Administrator)
  16. Re: Buddy pair batt selection. (Lee Hart)
  17. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Ryan Stotts)
  18. Re: Wave solder machine (Lee Hart)
  19. Re: Does anyone have any comments about my motor mounts?
      (Josh Creel)
  20. Re: donor car (Chip Gribben)
  21. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Myles Twete)
  22. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Roger Stockton)
  23. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Roger Stockton)
  24. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Roger Stockton)
  25. Re: 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math! (Roger Stockton)
  26. Re: ANGS and NEDRA record ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  27. Re: Tesla to do gas/electric hybrids (David Nelson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:01:05 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I want it all! (prius conversion)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 2 Feb 2008 at 23:36, Dan Frederiksen wrote:

> this has been suggested a few times but the effort is largely the same 
> as converting a gas car and gains a redundant system with 3 motors and 2
> batteypacks so what's the idea...

On the plus side, you would have an unusually aerodynamic and rather light 
(for its size) glider, optimized for low friction and high efficiency.

On the minus side, the Prius is a highly integrated machine.  Its many 
microcontrollers talk to each other, and I guarantee that they'd have a fit 
over a missing ICE.  You'd have to either simulate the engine sensors' 
output very accurately, or gut the vehicle and start from scratch.  The 
former would be a most daunting prospect and the latter would entail 
rebuilding such systems as ABS and body control.

It would not be a trivial project.  I'd love to see someone do it, but it 
certainly won't be me.  I know Insights have been converted, but I wouldn't 
be surprised if it were easier to design and execute a complete purpose-
built EV than to convert a Prius to a true EV.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 04:19:38 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Roger Stockton wrote:
> The ADC8" curves clearly show the efficiency dropping at a rate of 5% for 
> every 150A increase in current above 250A. Even with a peak efficiency of 
> 90%, this puts an ADC8" at just 32% efficiency when 2000A is pumped through 
> it.
>
>   

could you link to that data? I think you might be misreading it. voltage 
is important.

some simplified considerations: the controller voltage drop at high load 
is maybe 2.5V at 2000A meaning 5kW loss.
an ADC8 has an estimated 7mOhm internal resistance (from ADC6.7 L91 
being 10mOhm and the torque curves) which with 2 in parallel is 3.5mOhm.
Ploss = RII = 3.5mOhm x 2000A x 2000A = 14kW. a motor is more 
complicated than a resistor but this about 20kW loss isn't much out of 
maybe 170V 2000A which is 340kW. some other very large factor would have 
to come into play for the efficiency to drop down to 40%

Dan



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 07:44:21 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla to do gas/electric hybrids
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Roger Daisley wrote:
> Tesla announced yesterday that it will do a "gas-electric" version of the
> "Whitestar" sedan. It will be a sister ship to the all-electric version of
> the same name. They refer to it as a REV. (Range Extended Vehicle.)
>   

as predicted but what's the source?



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 23:09:25 -0800 (PST)
From: minhd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  battery tab welding
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Does anyone have a recommendations for a capacitive discharge welding service
in Southern California? I would like to build a battery pack using the
LiFePo4 26650 cells.  I don't want to invest in purchasing a CD welding
system at this time.  Any ideas how much I should expect to pay to have two
tab welded onto each cell?

Minh
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/battery-tab-welding-tp15251122p15251122.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:37:30 -0900
From: Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone have any comments about my motor
        mounts?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Josh,
Looks good!  Yet another version of the twin rails like I'm doing on the
Pinto http://www.evalbum.com/1093 .  The difference is that I'm picking up
the motor housing directly.  I did the same with the Mitsubishi
http://www.evalbum.com/756 .  

However it looks like you're setting up to use the alternator so having that
front plate like you do allows you to run the rails between them and
outboard of the motor housing.  There's no reason at all that won't work :-)

I also like the way you're reusing the clutch dick for your adaptor.  I
can't quite tell, are you using a taper-lock type hub or is that a press fit
with a keyway?

You might revise your 0-60 mph estimate however if you're going to run only
120V.  You can see some simulations I did at lower motor voltages on my
Mitsubishi at the bottom of the page here http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/
With my 4060 lb truck at 120V and 400A I top out at 56 mph and it took all
of 45 seconds to get there. At 120V and 500 amps however I was able to get
60 mph in just over 30 seconds.  

Keep on truckin'

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Josh Creel
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:38 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Does anyone have any comments about my motor
> mounts?
> 
> Checkout what I come up with on my S-10 conversion.  does anyone
> have any thoughts as to how well these mounts should work?
> 
> http://www.jcsevparts.com/services
> 
> Thanks for any advice.  I'm getting to the point where I'll need to order
> more parts to get much further ;-)
> 
> I hope I can get  the battery racks built tommorrow.
> 
> I'm looking at going with 120 vdc system instead of the 144vdc,  any
> thoughts?
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:18:12 +0200
From: Jukka J?rvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies..... and WTF CCS is
        used for ??
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Charger interfaces and grounding, DOT approvals... etc. What ever that 
we have not thought yet...

-Jukka


Ryan Stotts kirjoitti:
> Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
> 
>> We need to see how to comply on regulations outside EU.
> 
> What kind of regulations are you thinking about?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:27:19 +1300
From: Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain

On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 17:08 -0800, John Wayland wrote:

> Reality check... White Zombie hit 94 mph in the 1/8 mile on its 11.466 
> second run...I kinda doubt it only had 168 hp!

First, I remember the Killacycle broke a dyno last year, Bill, do you
have any specific power numbers before you broke it?

Second, we can put a lower bound on efficiency by ignoring air friction.
By lower bound I mean that efficiency MUST be greater than the figure
presented below because we know that some kinetic energy produced by the
motor is lost to air drag, in the differential & tyres and also stored
in the spinning wheels, tyres and shafts outside the motor.

Looking at the 11.466 timeslip
http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html and
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php#2007s

1858lbs is 843kg
200lb driver is 90.7kg
1/4 mile 114mph is 50.7m/s
1/8 mile 94.6mph is 42.3m/s

Ek = 1/2mv^2
Wh = J/3600

1/4     mile energy is 0.5*(843+90.7)*50.7^2 = 1.20MJ  = 333Wh
1st 1/8 mile energy is 0.5*(843+90.7)*42.3^2 = 0.835MJ = 232Wh
2nd 1/8 mile energy is 1.20-0.835            = 0.365MJ = 101Wh

Do you know how many Wh you consume from the battery in a run? Was the
EVision in place for this run? Does it have enough resolution to capture
the energy used in this short burst of power? If so, do you have numbers
for the run only, not including the return trip? Even better would be
the consumption during the first 1/8, since air drag will be much less
during the first half of the run.

If you consume less than 833Wh then you MUST be more than 40% efficient
because we know a lot of kinetic energy was created by the motor and not
captured in the above calculation.

Dividing by time we get average power:

1/4     mile power is 1200033/11.466 = 94.5kW
1st 1/8 mile power is  835330/7.234  = 115kW
2nd 1/8 mile power is  329275/4.232  = 86kW

We expect these figures to be different because air drag during the
second half will be greater than the first and it's a fairly safe
assumption that average input power is also different during the two
halves. The average power figures don't really tell us much anyway.
Since we know that the controller's input power is not constant we
cannot compare it to an average.

> (1) 360V pack of Hawker AGMs sagging to 210V at 1500 amps into the
> Zilla...this is 315 kw, or 422 battery hp.

I must point before someone compares your maximum power numbers to the
average power presented above that the Zilla's input power is not
constant and starts much closer to zero at the beginning of the run. You
cannot compare this to the power figures above.

If you want to settle this, go to a dyno day. I'm part of a car club and
we have occasional days where people go to a dyno and pay a small amount
of money to find out who has the most power. I've heard it's not great
on tyres so you might want to check this out and maybe take off your
drag slicks.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:14:33 -0500
From: tomgocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I want it all! (prius conversion)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


The thing with the third Prius (DC)motor is the ability to go over 42  
mph with more oomph Yes, it is more complex, but we are talking about  
supplementing the existing
excellent Prius ev components with a simple dc conversion. This is  
probably a project for when I become  philosopher king or have more  
money and time. Not very likely, but something to think about if a  
Prius with a defunct ICE Falls in my lap. Stranger things have happened.

Might be fun just to do what Cor did, or pull the ICE out and try  
running with just the transaxle in place.

Would be fun to take it into Toyota for service with extra batteries  
and ask them why the ICE doesn't come on!

These are the things to help get one through winter in the frozen north.



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:40:27 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone have any comments about my motor
        mounts?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Reply below comment:



> Josh,
> Looks good!  Yet another version of the twin rails like I'm doing on the
> Pinto http://www.evalbum.com/1093 .  The difference is that I'm picking up
> the motor housing directly.  I did the same with the Mitsubishi
> http://www.evalbum.com/756 .
>
> However it looks like you're setting up to use the alternator so having 
> that
> front plate like you do allows you to run the rails between them and
> outboard of the motor housing.  There's no reason at all that won't work 
> :-)
>
> I also like the way you're reusing the clutch dick for your adaptor.  I
> can't quite tell, are you using a taper-lock type hub or is that a press 
> fit
> with a keyway?

It's a press fit with a keyway.  I was going to use a taper-lock,  but my 
machinist thought we should try the pressed fit.  We disassembled the clutch 
disk and drilled out the rivit holes to mount it on the adapter hub using 
grade 8 5/16" bolts.  This way we retain the use of the springs that 
dampened the shock loads to the clutch.

> You might revise your 0-60 mph estimate however if you're going to run 
> only
> 120V.  You can see some simulations I did at lower motor voltages on my
> Mitsubishi at the bottom of the page here 
> http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/
> With my 4060 lb truck at 120V and 400A I top out at 56 mph and it took all
> of 45 seconds to get there. At 120V and 500 amps however I was able to get
> 60 mph in just over 30 seconds.

60 mph in 30 sec. is like normal accelaration, right?

another thing I was wondering,  is if I go with the 120 vdc pak,  it 
shouldn't be to hard to add more batteries to make it 144 vdc pak later 
should it?  I mean if I at least plan for it now  : ^)


Josh and Jenifer,
http://www.jcsevparts.com/services



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:42:04 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I want it all! (prius conversion)Why Not?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tomgocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I want it all! (prius conversion)


>
> The thing with the third Prius (DC)motor is the ability to go over 42
> mph with more oomph Yes, it is more complex, but we are talking about
> supplementing the existing
> excellent Prius ev components with a simple dc conversion. This is
> probably a project for when I become  philosopher king or have more
> money and time. Not very likely, but something to think about if a
> Prius with a defunct ICE Falls in my lap. Stranger things have happened.
>
> Might be fun just to do what Cor did, or pull the ICE out and try
> running with just the transaxle in place.
>
> Would be fun to take it into Toyota for service with extra batteries
> and ask them why the ICE doesn't come on!
>
> These are the things to help get one through winter in the frozen north.

 .    Hi EVerybody;

   Other thoughts from the frozen north; Just CONVERT a Prius to Electric. 
As a Running Prius weighs about 2500 lbs, strip it out, I KNOW the engine 
thing is HEAVY! After helping Lee Hart move one in a garage. Get rid of that 
AND the wimpy battery in the trunk. Use, maybe an Echo tranny, 5 speed. Hell 
it LOOKS enough like a Prius. Maybe it could be fitted into the Prei glider, 
clutch 9" Warp  an' all?Use the new crop of Lithium batteries, A123's, or 
China's new offerings. Don't want to make a Led Sled, here. Taking advantage 
of Prei aero and lightness, here. Or Maybe just wait for the Sunrise? But 
with all this Prius tinkering, beating around the Bush, here, bad pun, I 
know<g>!With a battery pack aboard that weighs less than I do, you COULD 
bring along a gas genny IF you had to go to CT from OR, without needing HD 
springs?It PROBABLY wouldn't need alota amps to cruise a Prius car-cuss down 
the road? I didn't say Drag Strip!

    Seeya

    Bob
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date: 
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
> 



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:28:47 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I want it all! (prius conversion)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

tomgocze wrote:
> The thing with the third Prius (DC)motor is the ability to go over 42  
> mph with more oomph Yes, it is more complex, but we are talking about  
> supplementing the existing excellent Prius ev components with a simple dc 
> conversion. 

simple eh? : ) it's a full additional EV conversion.

one thing that could work in its favor is if the prius doesn't have any 
gears. is the prius gearless besides the planetgear? no clutch, no 
shifter. if so that would be some justification for the 3 motors. 
otherwise it doesn't make sense to use it as a donor car



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 09:47:13 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wave solder machine
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi Mark,

How is your wave soldering machine working? I've been asked to do 
another batch of my Battery Balancers, and wondered if you're ready to 
quote on wave soldering the boards?

There are two boards, both entirely thru-hole parts. The relay board is 
3" x 12", and the control board is 6" x 12". Mostly small parts 
(resistors, ICs) but there are also some big relays and screw terminals 
-- it can be tricky to get it set up right so both small and large parts 
solder well.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:50:41 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery tab welding
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Minh,

I just saw a segment ON HOW ITS MADE and there was showing different welding 
technics.  They was doing a high temperature 1000 F silver soldering welding 
using a tack welder.  A ribbon of silver solder that was coming off a reel, 
was inserted between the two contact alloys that was being welded together.

A tack or contact weld point may be only a little spot of the two alloys 
that are welded together, but then the silver solder is melted between and 
also bonded to the metals between the metals that was being welded together. 
This increase the conductivity of that weld joint, instead of just a little 
tack spot.

You could go to a welding supply company and see what type of products are 
best for what you want to do.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "minhd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 12:09 AM
Subject: [EVDL] battery tab welding


>
> Does anyone have a recommendations for a capacitive discharge welding 
> service
> in Southern California? I would like to build a battery pack using the
> LiFePo4 26650 cells.  I don't want to invest in purchasing a CD welding
> system at this time.  Any ideas how much I should expect to pay to have 
> two
> tab welded onto each cell?
>
> Minh
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/battery-tab-welding-tp15251122p15251122.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:34:03 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  Does anyone have any comments about my motor mounts?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Looks good, indeed, looks familiar :-)

http://www.jfs-tech.com/cvevs/MockMotor1.JPG



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:29:09 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buddy pair batt selection.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 2 Feb 2008 at 23:04, Eduardo K. wrote:

> This brings the question: how should I select which batteries to pair?

I think you will have problems if you use mismatched batteries in parallel.  
The higher voltage battery will discharge itself trying to charge the lower 
voltage one. 

In an extreme case (one battery has one or more shorted cells) the current 
can be very large, and can cause the weak battery to fail in a rather 
spectacular (and possibly damaging) manner.

It's best not to use batteries in poor condition, but if you must, I'd 
recommend connecting them all in series and monitoring the voltage of each 
battery while motoring.  Stop when the first 12v module falls to 10.5 volts.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 10:59:42 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buddy pair batt selection.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Eduardo K. wrote:
> I am ready to install the batteries to my ev and have decided that
> will start with eight 12volts AGMs in four buddy pairs for 48volts.
> All batts are used and have been abused in different ways. After
> charging they all rest at different voltages, with a half a volt
> spread.
> 
> This brings the question: how should I select which batteries to
> pair?

I would measure each battery's amphour capacity, and then pair them so 
each pair has the same total capacity. Pair two 50ah = 100ah, a 60ah and 
40ah = 100ah, etc.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:11:49 -0600
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

John, any chance of getting the White Zombie on a chassis dyno while
it's still powered by lead?



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 11:33:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wave solder machine
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lee Hart wrote:
> Hi Mark. How is your wave soldering machine working?...

Oops; that was supposed to go to Mark. Darn, I hate the Thunderbird mail 
program! It doesn't show me where emails came from; only their originator.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:46:07 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone have any comments about my motor
        mounts?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

COOL,  I haven't seen that before.



> Looks good, indeed, looks familiar :-)
> 
> http://www.jfs-tech.com/cvevs/MockMotor1.JPG
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:11:23 -0500
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] donor car
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Looks like a good candidate for a donor. I notice alot more Porsche  
conversions being done lately.

But it looks like the Florida environment may have taken its toll or  
the vehicle was in a flood and became an aquarium. Because it seems  
pretty worn for it's age, with the torn up seats, worn interior, the  
corrosion and the rust.

The locked up engine doesn't matter or lack of catalytic converter.

If you can get past the water damage and rust and strip the car down  
and clean it up I could see this as a nice project EV. It looks  
pretty straight otherwise.

Chip


> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:24:42 -0500
> From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [EVDL] donor car
> To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii"
>
> You will need to understand my love of the 928 when looking at this.
> Considering the effort that goes into an EV this would be a bargain  
> of a
> donor car. I wish I had the time. I know every square inch of these  
> cars.
>
> Mark
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
> ViewItem&ih=019&viewitem=&it
> em=290203059947&rd=1



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:23:41 -0800
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

I'd like to see that.
John, round up a video crew, drive the WZ to the nearest DEQ testing station
and work your charm on the guys there to do a dyno test.  If you catch them
at a slow time and their manager's into it, you might get a free dyno test.
OTOH, maybe WZ would break their dyno.

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!

John, any chance of getting the White Zombie on a chassis dyno while
it's still powered by lead?

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------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:27:34 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

> That efficiency curve is for 96 or 72 volt operation. His
> motors are running on 210V. If we assume that the efficiency
> drop with increasing current is due to copper losses, then he
> should have roughly the same losses for much more motor
> power. Two or three times the power for similar losses means
> higher efficiency. 1-(1-.32)/(210/96)=.69 If the torque curve
> efficiency was taken at 72V, then the theoretical difference
> is even higher.
>
> This is assuming that the efficiency loss is due entirely to
> copper loss. I think this paints an over-optimistic picture,
> but my point is that WZ is running in conditions where the
> stock efficiency curve doesn't entirely apply.

Yes, it is true that the Zombie's motors are operating far off the known 
curves, both in current and voltage, and it is uncertain just how accurate 
*any* predictions of their behaviour will be!

However, bear in mind that from 0-3000RPM the voltage on the motors is quite 
low; they aren't seeing 210V until after the shift to parallel at 3500RPM+; 
before this the motors are in series, so they could only see a maximum of 105V 
each for the same 210V limit from the controller - not all that far from the 
96V curves after all ;^).

Estimating 3mOhms each for the motors, it only takes 12V to push 2000A through 
them  at stall (neglecting the voltage drop in the brushes, etc., so most 
likely add another volt or so, and then some more if they are more resistive 
than this).

I'm a big believer in measurements; get the car on a chassis dyno, or dyno the 
motor alone and let's see what it really does.

> Also note that at 378kW input, 4kW of copper loss through
> each mOhm isn't very significant if the motors only have a
> few mOhms of resistance.

No, of course not.  I was responding to John's statement the motors feel like 
they might have been dissipating perhaps 4-5kW of power.  The title of his post 
did say "lets do some math", afterall, not lets make some WAGs. ;^>

His motors have more than 1mOhm of internal resistance each.  As I recall, the 
bigger 9" is around 3mOhms or so (sorry, I can't locate where I got that number 
from at the moment), so his 8"s will be even more, and he has 2 in series.  
6mOhms @ 4kW per is already 24kW just in I2R inside the motor.

The point is not to armwave about what the losses might be, but to point out 
quite undisputably that you can't estimate the motor efficiency with any 
accurary based on how warm it feels when it gets back to the pits and WAGing 
the amount of energy it might take to warm them that much.

> That said, I also think that using an ICE calculator won't be
> very applicable to EVs. An EV trying to get the same drag
                             ^^
                             ICE ;^>

> performance will have to have a much more powerful engine
> than the equivalent EV because it will have much less
> starting torque. I'm not sure how much of a factor that would
> be in John's efficiency calculations, but it would hurt the
> calculated WZ efficiency.

You haven't yet been to an EV drag race, have you? ;^>

The starting torque makes a HUGE difference in the EV 1/4mi performance.  EV's 
just leap out of the hole and way out in front of an ICE, but often the ICE has 
them reeled (nearly) back in by the finish due to its superior HP.  The first 
half of the race is all about torque, but the last half is all about HP.  Times 
are a changin', but at this point EVs are still winning races because of the 
lead they get out of the hole, and having just enough HP to keep the ICE 
competition from being able to claw back quite all of that lead before running 
out of track.  This makes for very exciting racing and very good EV publicity, 
but I think it clearly shows that EV 1/4mi performance is based on quite 
different behaviours than ICE-based calculators assume.

I'm quite happy to concede that the efficiency of the DC motor might not be 
quite as bad as the 32% I suggested, but I think that when someone finally does 
actually *measure* what the DC motor is doing some eyes will be opened when 
they realise just how much less HP is required to achieve these very impressive 
1/4 mi performnces than with an ICE.

Like Rod, I'm interested to hear what Jeff Major has to say; he does seem to be 
someone with the experience and knowledge to support an estimate of 40% 
efficiency.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:41:17 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dan Frederiksen wrote:

> could you link to that data? I think you might be misreading
> it. voltage is important.

I did link to the ADC9" plot in my original post (in the thread "I want it 
all"):

<http://www.evpartsgo.com/img/mt2119torquecurvebyus.PDF>.

The ADC8" plot is also on the EV Parts site (go to street vehicle, motors, and 
select the ADC 8").  I can't get you the link at the moment as the site seems 
to be down.

> some simplified considerations: the controller voltage drop
> at high load is maybe 2.5V at 2000A meaning 5kW loss.

The Z2k is spec'ed at 1.9V max drop, and John stated he is pulling 1500 battery 
amps, which results in just under 3kW loss in the IGBTs.

At the low duty cycles associated with low RPM operation, the switches will be 
off a lot of the time, and the diodes will be carrying the full 2000A motor 
loop current.  At about 1.5V drop, this works ouy to about 3kW loss in the 
freewheel diodes, but since the diodes and IGBTs are both conducting at the 
same time, it sugests a controller loww of about 3kW, not 6kW.

> an ADC8 has an estimated 7mOhm internal resistance (from
> ADC6.7 L91 being 10mOhm and the torque curves) which with 2
> in parallel is 3.5mOhm.
> Ploss = RII = 3.5mOhm x 2000A x 2000A = 14kW

My <40% efficiency estimates are for the period of 2000A per motor operation, 
which is when the motors are in series.  With your 7mOhm per motor estimate, 
and 2 in series, this is 14mOhm x 2000A^2 = 56kW loss, not 14kW.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:47:27 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wrote:

> Yes, it is true that the Zombie's motors are operating far
> off the known curves, both in current and voltage, and it is
> uncertain just how accurate *any* predictions of their
> behaviour will be!
>
> However, bear in mind that from 0-3000RPM the voltage on the
> motors is quite low; they aren't seeing 210V until after the
> shift to parallel at 3500RPM+; before this the motors are in
> series, so they could only see a maximum of 105V each for the
> same 210V limit from the controller - not all that far from
> the 96V curves after all ;^).

As usual, just after hitting 'send', I realised that even this isn't correct.

John stated that he is seeing 210V @ 1500A on the input side of the Zilla, and 
2000A on the motor side, so the motors are seeing even less voltage than 210V!  
210* 1500 = 315kW input / 2000A = 157.5V maximum output (it will be less since 
I've assumed 100% controller efficiency).  This is less than 79V *maximum* per 
motor while in series, so definitely in the ballpark where the 72V and 96V 
ADC8" curves apply.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:50:11 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 40% Efficiency?..lets do some Math!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wrote:

> At the low duty cycles associated with low RPM operation, the
> switches will be off a lot of the time, and the diodes will
> be carrying the full 2000A motor loop current.  At about 1.5V
> drop, this works ouy to about 3kW loss in the freewheel
> diodes, but since the diodes and IGBTs are both conducting at
                                         ^^^
                                        AREN'T!!!

> the same time, it sugests a controller loww of about 3kW, not 6kW.
                                         ^^^^
                                         loss

Sorry, looks like I need more caffiene yet this morning ;^>

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:25:09 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ANGS and NEDRA record
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Ok Jim I'm finally back in good old freeze your &$@ off Ohio. AGNS had 
a best run of 8.08 @ 90.5 at BBB. Back up run was 8.17 @ 87.0.  I 
assume this back up will be a new record as it was 240 volts in the 
1/8th mile, if only because it is the first recorded 1/8 at that 
voltage. I thought we had a run with an et of 7.9 something but can't 
find a slip for it.  It was very late and we were all whipped so I can 
not confirm nor deny the 7's.  The GE motor was most impressive, (I 
know how much you like those PM motors), and with a little help from a 
new rear tire I think we have alot more in the tank. I almost got AGNS 
to Bithlo (Orlando) on Wednesday night to find out what we could do in 
the 1/4 but couldn't sneak away from the park. Since I have some time I 
will be be moving up to a junior dragster slick and waiting for our 
next trip to FLA. BTW, The original AGNS nameplate shows AGNuS. At the 
time I was trying to hint at the pronunciation of the name.

Now if we just add another GE and a third wheel......... Oh no I can 
hear the groans already.....

Shawn


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ANGS and NEDRA record



--- Eric Udell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brian D. Hall wrote:
>
> >We lost all of them when Shawn Lawless built
> ANGS...We want them back....
>
> I have bad news for you Brian. Shawn moved the
> target again. Last
> weekend at the Miami Battery Beach Burnout, I'm
> pretty sure that ANGS
> made a sub 8 second pass at over 90mph in the 8th.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] if I recall
> correctly.

Hey all
Shawn had called me while I was down at San Diego
airport (thanks again for helping me kill a 1/2 hour
time off my wait 8^) and told me about the runs made
with AGNS. Shawn got tired of burning up those fancy
smancy tea sipping high priced permags and went with a
single motor setup with actual meat in the brushes 8^)
I helped walk Shawn through a quick brush advancement
and with about zero test and tune the bike barely made
it to BBB. There is no doubt as Shawn refines this
bike it'll do 100 MPH in the 1/8th!

I didn't get all the facts straight as Shawn was
talking a mile a minute (kind of like what I hear I
do)(but like after 27 cups of coffee 8^) I also had
the aiport noise and such to deal with so I can't
quote any hard facts and have been waiting for a
report from Shawn. I know he's busy, and knowing I
still haven't had time /energy to do one myself that
it just gets tough trying to get caught up after
EVents like these.

Anyway, I've been saying it for a couple years now
that the next best motor is just waiting to be found
(both in daily and racer) and well, Shawn may have
just found such a motor, time will tell. I do know
that Shawn has a whole new set of corners to start
shaving off of the bike, and it's not seen it's full
potential, not EVen close.
Anyway just a little behind the scene info that I can
add to the pot here until Shawn can pry his ass away
from Mickey 8^o of course it might be Minnie that
Shawn spends all his time with 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:28:04 -0800
From: "David Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla to do gas/electric hybrids
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9863202-54.html



------------------------------

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