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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: GM should sell Volt "batteries not included" (Morgan LaMoore)
   2.  Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro (paul holmes)
   3. Battery Tray Material (MIKE WILLMON)
   4. Re: GM should sell Volt "batteries not included" (Jeff Shanab)
   5. Re: GM should sell Volt "batteries not included"
      (Robert MacDowell)
   6. Re: Battery Tray Material (Roland Wiench)
   7. Re: Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro (Roland Wiench)
   8. Re: Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro (Josh Creel)
   9. Re: Battery Tray Material (Frank John)
  10. Re: Charging a 48 volt pack (JRP3)
  11. Adapter plate design for limited space (Tom Parker)
  12. Re: RE : spark EV (Steven **)
  13. Re: Electric cars from china (Steven **)
  14. Re: RE : spark EV (Chuck Homic)
  15. Re: Battery Tray Material (John Wayland)
  16.  SepEx Controller (gottdi)
  17. Re: RE : spark EV (Chuck Homic)
  18. Re: Electric cars from china (Ben)
  19. Re: Kelly Controller, does this make sense? (Rick Beebe)
  20. Re: Charging a 48 volt pack (Jeff Major)
  21. Re: GM should sell Volt "batteries not included" (storm connors)
  22. Re: Battery Tray Material (Lee Hart)
  23. Re: Battery Tray Material (Myles Twete)
  24. Re: Minimum adapter plate size for Metro (paul holmes)
  25. Re: Battery Tray Material ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  26. Re: RE : spark EV (Morgan LaMoore)
  27. Re: GM should sell Volt (Lee Hart)
  28. Re: Electric cars from china (Willie McKemie)
  29. Re: Battery Tray Material (Myles Twete)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:46:57 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM should sell Volt "batteries not included"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Feb 8, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  So, if GM really wants to sell the Volt, they can do it, *without*
>  waiting for the superbattery.

A123/LiFePO4 is enough of a "superbattery" for now. Sure, it doesn't
provide the range of gas, but it can provide a 40-mile range and
plenty of battery power.

>  What's in it for us? At last, EV hobbyists would be able to buy a car
>  that really *is* built to be an EV. We could play with different battery
>  arrangements to our heart's content. Basically, the Volt would be just
>  like that original IBM PC, that everybody and their brother started
>  making add-on boards for.

Personally, if I'm buying an OEM car, I would rather it come with an
OEM Lithium pack instead of no batteries or Lead Acid. If GM has to
subsidize part of the cost until battery prices drop, so be it.

Undersized or weak packs in the Volt would just hurt EVs in the eyes
of the public. People would remember the Volts with lackluster
performance due to no battery or a heavy lead pack and it would turn
them off to EVs.

Also, if Lithium is only for the high-end cars, it won't drop in price
nearly as fast as it will if every Volt has the same Lithium pack.

One thing that I really like about the Volt is that mass production
should make Lithium batteries much more affordable. They're a big
company; they can absorb the start-up costs of large-scale battery
production.

Even if A123 makes a custom cell just for GM, they should be able to
improve their production process and improve on other cell
manufacturing as well to reduce prices.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 21:36:30 -0800 (PST)
From: paul holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Does anyone know the minimum rectangle dimensions of an aluminum plate that
can cover the bell housing for the various small cars such as Metro, rabbit,
etc.?  I found a really good deal on an aluminum plate, but I haven't gotten
the car yet.  I do know it's going to be a small metro type of conversion,
but I don't want the plate to be too small.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Help-Me%21%21-Minimum-adapter-plate-size-for-Metro-tp15350171p15350171.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 22:36:29 -0900
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

If I were going to build a battery tray 19.5"L x 37"W x 8" deep to hold 30  
Enersys  12V XE16 batteries (425# total weight) oriented in 6 rows of 5 
batteries stacked length wise along the long side of the box......

what thickness sheet metal should I use?
I want to have the sheet metal guy build a plain old straight rectangular box 
whose walls stick up 2" higher that the top of the box.  Either I will have him 
bend all the edges out to form a 2" lip or I will do it on site.  The lip will 
rest on top of a 2" Square tubular frame that is doubling as the "back half" 
stiffners for the car.

If the box can't be strong enough to handle the weight without bowing or being 
too heavy, I'll add a couple small stiffner tubes across the bottom side.

...anyway, not knowing material properties of sheet metal enough to talk to the 
sheet metal guy, what do people recommend?

Thanks for any info.

Mike
Anchorage, Ak.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 01:17:32 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM should sell Volt "batteries not included"
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My first thought was that this wouldn't work because of the way auto
companies trade emmision standards around.  (They meet the required
average MPG by makeing enough high milage underpowered cars to allow
them to make GasNoxious SUV's) .

After following the discussion though, it sonds like there are some good
ideas.

Maybe this will become the next stepping stone. Buy a hybrid with the
hybrid pack included. Then make it a plug in hybrid by adding the second
pack.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 01:18:10 -0800
From: Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM should sell Volt "batteries not included"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Lee Hart wrote:
> Lots of products are sold "batteries not included." Consumers have
> to buy the batteries themselves. The performance of the product
> natually depends on what batteries the consumer buys (cheap ones, or
> expensive ones).
> 
> So, I have a radical idea. Why doesn't GM supply the Volt *without
> batteries*? It still runs as a gasoline car. It's lighter, cheaper, and
> not much harder to build than any other car. They wouldn't have to spend 
> a penny on exotic battery R&D, and could introduce the Volt in the same 
> time frame as any other car.
> 
> But, include a "battery box" in the trunk that fits standard size
> batteries. 

Or sell it with available batteries, and let the consumer upgrade if so 
inclined.

Precedent 1, lots of gadgets are sold with lame batteries and an 
"optional, better battery" you can buy (wasting the lame one).

Precedent 2, hot-rodding cars is the American pastime.  A vibrant 
aftermarket will emerge to fill that battery box.

Robert



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:50:51 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Mike,

The thickness of the metal is also going to depend on any welding you are 
going to do, like a full weld on the corners and additional supports.

Instead of having the corners of the box butt together and than full weld, 
it may be best to have the corners overlap with a 2 inch lip that the one 
side section laps over the other sides.

I find that welding any metal lighter than 18 gage, even with a mig welder 
with 20 gage wire, the metal will warp on you using full length welds.  To 
keep the warping down, I stitch weld and even then you may get some warping.

Using 18 gage is a little better, but still must do stitch welded.  It also 
depends on the hardness of the metal, the softer and easier to bend but is 
harder to keep the welding heat from warping the metal.  You can use a 
harder grade metal, but you can only bend it once.  Can make slight bending 
adjustments and must radius the 90 degrees bends a bit or it will crack at 
these bends.

The harder metal is also easier to weld too.  At one time my first battery 
box was made out of 1/4 thick aluminum which is two times lighter than 
steel.  The weight would be about equal to a little more than 1/8 thick 
steel or about 10 gage steel which is 0.1345 inch thick.

Even with a 1/4 inch thick aluminum plates welded together that measure 32 
inches by 32 inches and all the corners had another 1/4 inch 3 inch angle 
full welded on it, the flat bottom has a slight curve that developed which 
is about 1/16 inch which is not bad.

A soft 16 gage or 0.05 inch would be my choice if you are going to do a a 
lot of welding on it.  A hard 18 gage or 0.04 inch would work too.  You 
could use semi soft 80 thousands aluminum or .080 inch which I like to use 
for making cases and boxes.  This is just little over 14 gage which is 0.074 
inch.

You can mig weld aluminum or even do aluminum soldering with a oxy/acetylene 
torch.  I get my aluminum soldering sticks from a radiator shop that does a 
lot of this type of work.  You can solder a thick 1 inch aluminum block to a 
thin aluminum sheets with this stuff.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material


> If I were going to build a battery tray 19.5"L x 37"W x 8" deep to hold 30 
> Enersys  12V XE16 batteries (425# total weight) oriented in 6 rows of 5 
> batteries stacked length wise along the long side of the box......
>
> what thickness sheet metal should I use?
> I want to have the sheet metal guy build a plain old straight rectangular 
> box whose walls stick up 2" higher that the top of the box.  Either I will 
> have him bend all the edges out to form a 2" lip or I will do it on site. 
> The lip will rest on top of a 2" Square tubular frame that is doubling as 
> the "back half" stiffners for the car.
>
> If the box can't be strong enough to handle the weight without bowing or 
> being too heavy, I'll add a couple small stiffner tubes across the bottom 
> side.
>
> ...anyway, not knowing material properties of sheet metal enough to talk 
> to the sheet metal guy, what do people recommend?
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
> Mike
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 05:20:04 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Paul,

You also have to figure in the thickness of the adapter plate and if you are 
going to use a motor coupler, flywheel, clutch and transmission or motor 
coupler and transmission or motor coupler and driveline combinations.

If you are using the standard coupler, flywheel, clutch, transmission set 
up, then your adapter plate has to be thick enough to duplicated the space 
between the motor coupler and the transmission input shaft.  This will 
require a certain thickness of the adapter plate.

To determine the thickness, you install the motor coupler on the motor, that 
has a pilot bushing either in the coupler or in the motor output shaft.  You 
than insert the transmission input pilot shaft into the this pilot bushing 
leaving about 1/16 to 1/8 inch clearance.  You do not want to butt up the 
transmission input shaft tight against this bushing.

Now you measure the distance between the rear of the motor and the 
transmission bell housing.  This will be the thickness of your adapter 
plate.  The length of the motor coupler is also critical, so you want that 
first, to see how much this coupler pushes out your transmission.

Roland

My adapter plate for a C-10 transmission is a two piece unit that is 2.77 
inches thick for a Warp motor.  My adapter plate for a Munci, Sagana, 
Richman, TH-350, TH-400, TH-700R4 is 2 inches thick for a GE motor.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "paul holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro


>
> Does anyone know the minimum rectangle dimensions of an aluminum plate 
> that
> can cover the bell housing for the various small cars such as Metro, 
> rabbit,
> etc.?  I found a really good deal on an aluminum plate, but I haven't 
> gotten
> the car yet.  I do know it's going to be a small metro type of conversion,
> but I don't want the plate to be too small.
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Help-Me%21%21-Minimum-adapter-plate-size-for-Metro-tp15350171p15350171.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 07:18:03 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help Me!! Minimum adapter plate size for Metro
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

An S-10 is about 14", not sure how much smaller a GEO would be?



> Does anyone know the minimum rectangle dimensions of an aluminum plate 
> that
> can cover the bell housing for the various small cars such as Metro, 
> rabbit,
> etc.?  I found a really good deal on an aluminum plate, but I haven't 
> gotten
> the car yet.  I do know it's going to be a small metro type of conversion,
> but I don't want the plate to be too small.



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:49:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I would want to have a couple rows of thicker steel bar underneath that box 
regardless of the size sheet metal you use.  The static weight is a 
consideration but dynamic loads (think potholes) can increase loading by 
several times.  You could build the box as described then support it and 
perform dynamic testing (i.e. jump in it) to see how it reacts then stiffen 
accordingly.  I would also plan to use bolted connections along the top.


----- Original Message ----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2008 2:36:29 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material


If 
I 
were 
going 
to 
build 
a 
battery 
tray 
19.5"L 
x 
37"W 
x 
8" 
deep 
to 
hold 
30  
Enersys  
12V 
XE16 
batteries 
(425# 
total 
weight) 
oriented 
in 
6 
rows 
of 
5 
batteries 
stacked 
length 
wise 
along 
the 
long 
side 
of 
the 
box......

If 
the 
box 
can't 
be 
strong 
enough 
to 
handle 
the 
weight 
without 
bowing 
or 
being 
too 
heavy, 
I'll 
add 
a 
couple 
small 
stiffner 
tubes 
across 
the 
bottom 
side.






      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 05:26:33 -0800 (PST)
From: JRP3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging a 48 volt pack
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Jeff Major wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi JRP3,
> 
> You have to have 12 volt chargers that are isolated,
> output from input.  Most are because they have a
> transformer inside.  Then you can leave the series
> connection in place and charge.
> 
> I do this using Minn Kota chargers.  
> 
> http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/chargers/detail.asp?pg=mk220
> 

Just to be clear, these chargers are essentially two chargers in one, and
for 4 batteries I'd use two chargers? 


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Charging-a-48-volt-pack-tp15356103p15371703.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:03:42 +1300
From: Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Adapter plate design for limited space
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain

I'm in the process of coupling my motor to my gearbox. I'm going
clutchless and I've got a nasty length constraint, so I'm mounting the
motor inside the gearbox bell housing (the bell housing is integral, you
can't remove it). This means I can use the input shaft of the gearbox
directly in the involute spline on the motor. See
http://carrott.org/blog/archives/7-It-fits!.html

The adapter will consist of three parts. A plate attached to the bell
housing where the gas engine originally attached (the motor passes
through this plate). A plate attached to the front of the motor
(possibly this will be the motor's existing front plate as it has ears
sticking out). A spacer between the two plates.

The adapter is the outlined with * characters, all parts are more or
less rotationally symmetric, this diagram is not to scale:

===============*
==========     *
========== *****
========== *#########################
========== *#########################
Gearbox == *##### Motor #############
========== *#########################
========== *#########################
========== *****
==========     *
===============*

I see three ways to make this plate.

First, I can locate the center of the motor and the center of the
gearbox shaft, and draw everything out in a CAD program and have it cut
on a CNC mill (either as one piece or as 3).

Second, I can cut the bell housing plate that the motor passes through
and then make the spacer to place the motor the right distance into the
bell housing. Finally I feel around to center the motor and bolt the
spacer to the back of the motor's mounting ears (it has ears which
extend outside it's normal cross section). By feeling around I mean bolt
everything together loosely, run the motor slowly and tap until it
sounds right and the motor experiences the least load.

The third option is like the second except I make a plate which fits the
centering ring on the face of the motor and use that instead of the
mounting ears. This is better because the motor is much less likely to
move off center if it frets in the adapter. However, if the motor starts
to fret I may have bigger problems to deal with anyway.

If I get the measurements wrong, option 1 could end up being an
expensive version of option 3. I could also send the gearbox, motor,
subframe & suspension to someone clever and have them do the
measurement, machining and fitting. In all cases I would probably put a
couple of dowels through any exposed parts of the adapter (as well as
making use those already in the bell housing).

I'm particularly interested in opinions on centering the motor by feel.
The gearbox input shaft will guide the motor and all I have to do is
avoid any side loads on it



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:38:31 -0600
From: "Steven **" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE : spark EV
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://spark-ev.com/index.php?topic=12.msg148#msg148

Spark-EV is offering a 1-week test drive of the new Zotye to the
communities choice.  Anyone here live in/near Pennsylvania?  Looks
like their corporate office is in Easton and their warehouse is in
Philladelphia.

It'd be awesome if one of the regulars on this list could report back
on the Zotye.

-Steven

On Feb 7, 2008 7:39 AM, wayne alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree with david, some how I smell a rat. If they can get 100 miles on lead 
> acid, I dont believe that at all, then there useing LiOn batts, and to get 
> that range they would have to be selling the car for over 40,000$ or more. 
> Even wonder why so many scams start with anything needed or wanted, but just 
> really  never see it, its just 3 inches out of reach  & hasnt been put in the 
> publics hands yet????
>     I have to be convinced, I have to kick the tires feel the fenders, if Its 
> real, and for 20K$, I'll buy one, maybe 2 BUT, in my dealing with stuff, the 
> only thing the ChiComs ever made worth a damn was the AK47, every thing else 
> was trash.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:54:11 -0600
From: "Steven **" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric cars from china
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Compare
http://spark-ev.com/quiet.html
to
http://flybo.en.alibaba.com/product/200052047/201099607/electric_vehicle/electric_car/showimg.html

I think they're the same.  I vaguely recall seeing Spark-EV mention
Flybo before.  Can't find the reference right now, but Spark-EV may be
a distributer for Flybo.

-Steven

On Feb 8, 2008 8:12 PM, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> just ran across an electric car on alibaba and it seems they have
> several models.
> like this one:
> http://flybo.en.alibaba.com/offerdetail/202436484/electric_vehicle/showimg.html
> they are all NEVs or semi NEVs but still
> search for 'electric car' to see them
>
> several smart replicas.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:54:44 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE : spark EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I would do it, but I'm 215 miles away from Easton, so I'd have to spend 
the week getting it home and then back again. :)  (Probably 2 overnight 
recharges each way.)  Anyone closer?

Steven ** wrote:
> http://spark-ev.com/index.php?topic=12.msg148#msg148
>
> Spark-EV is offering a 1-week test drive of the new Zotye to the
> communities choice.  Anyone here live in/near Pennsylvania?  Looks
> like their corporate office is in Easton and their warehouse is in
> Philladelphia.
>
> It'd be awesome if one of the regulars on this list could report back
> on the Zotye.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Feb 7, 2008 7:39 AM, wayne alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> I agree with david, some how I smell a rat. If they can get 100 miles on 
>> lead acid, I dont believe that at all, then there useing LiOn batts, and to 
>> get that range they would have to be selling the car for over 40,000$ or 
>> more. Even wonder why so many scams start with anything needed or wanted, 
>> but just really  never see it, its just 3 inches out of reach  & hasnt been 
>> put in the publics hands yet????
>>     I have to be convinced, I have to kick the tires feel the fenders, if 
>> Its real, and for 20K$, I'll buy one, maybe 2 BUT, in my dealing with stuff, 
>> the only thing the ChiComs ever made worth a damn was the AK47, every thing 
>> else was trash.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>   



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:09:41 -0800
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello Mike and All,

MIKE WILLMON wrote:

>If I were going to build a battery tray...what thickness sheet metal should I 
>use?
>I want to have the sheet metal guy build a plain old straight rectangular box..
>not knowing material properties of sheet metal enough to talk to the sheet 
>metal guy, what do people recommend?
>
Mike, make the box out of aluminum. In EV drag racing, the batteries 
heat up much more quickly than they do in street driving, and batteries 
in the center of a box surrounded by other batteries also heating up, 
will get hotter than the rest...not good to keep the pack balanced and 
to keep the batteries in their SOA. Using steel or other poor heat 
conductors instead of aluminum is a bad idea. Aluminum on the other 
hand, will quickly spread the heat all around, pulling the higher heat 
from the center batteries and distributing it to the other cooler ones 
on the outer edges. The other real cool benefit (pun intended), is that 
once your batteries warm up to the perfect racing temp., you then want 
to keep them from getting too hot, and the big flat expanse of aluminum 
under all the batteries makes a great radiator under which you can blow 
cool fan assisted air between high current 1/4 mile runs.

I used to think that batteries that got hotter and hotter was better for 
drag racing. This in part, is true, because hot lead acid batteries make 
WAY more power than cool ones do. Getting them racing-hot makes for the 
quickest runs, but it also reduces the life of the batteries, even when 
not pushed to the blow-up point...the high heat is not good for overall 
life. If you've got a battery sponsor telling you to go as quickly as 
you can and not to worry about the batteries (we'll give you more, just 
keep setting those records), well...you torture the poor things, set 
records, go real fast, then blow a battery every now and then! If you're 
pulling out your own wallet to get an expensive pack of AGM lead, your 
position changes. You still want to go as quickly as you can of course, 
but you want to also not destroy your batteries in the process. Pretty 
much every time we have blown batteries, it wasn't from excess high 
current draws...those Hawkers handle that very well, thank you. It was 
instead, right after we got the batteries too hot to the touch, fogged 
the Lexan lid on a run (venting from literally boiling water inside the 
batteries), then went back out anyway and pushed them hard again. We 
began cooling the packs between runs, only after they got up to racing 
temperatures, by forcing cool air under and over the aluminum battery 
compartments and never again vented the batteries, never again saw steam 
forming on the Lexan top cover, and had great success with the 
durability of the batteries. In 2007, we never let the pack of 60, 16 
ahr Enersys (Hawker Genesis model) get too hot as we used to, and 
started to fan-cool the packs between runs after two or three runs got 
them up to racing temperature. They never boiled inside, they never 
vented and fogged the Lexan covers, and after the year of racing, they 
sit in my backyard EV shop in great condition, with all batteries 
healthy and very closely equalized...not bad after delivering high 11 
seconds runs!

Anyway, food for thought Mike, as you prepare your potent Pinto for 
battle at the track. I'd highly recommend using aluminum the way Marko 
Mongillo and I do, by building the boxes out of thinner material (saves 
a lot of weight) that is bent and folded in ways that make the boxes 
very strong, with  formed under-braces, also made from thin material 
that is creased and folded to make them rigid. I have pretty clear 
pictures of the these at my web page here:

<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php#2007e>

You should also study the rules posted at the NEDRA site that detail 
hold-downs and bolt sizes, originally laid out by Bill Dube, NEDRA's 
first technical director. You need to be safe and follow the regs for 
proper battery containment. Bill has always been very accessible and 
helpful to anyone wanting to build safe and secure battery compartments 
that will meet or exceed NEDRA's requirements.

See Ya....John Wayland



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:15:32 -0800 (PST)
From: gottdi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL]  SepEx Controller
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Just wanted to ask if anyone here had an old but functional 48 volt SepEx
controller they'd want to sell? I am wanting to figure out if a regular
SepEx controller will work with my motor. This will only be for testing
purposes as I'd need at least a 72 volt system for the street. Even a 36
volt controller for testing will work. I just need to figure this system
out. Things are going well and moving forward. I just don't really want to
use the contactor system of throttle for this vehicle. Seems a bit unsafe to
not have good speed control. Who can help. I found a controller on ebay and
they are 48 volt ones but they are being sold as a pair and I only need one.
Rrrrrrrrrr. 


Thanks
Pete : )
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/SepEx-Controller-tp15372928p15372928.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:28:55 -0500
From: Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE : spark EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

wayne alexander wrote:
> I agree with david, some how I smell a rat. If they can get 100 miles on lead 
> acid, I dont believe that at all,
I was playing with Jerry Halstead's EV calculator (my favorite ev calc): 
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/

I came up with a 1200 lb vehicle, 18ft^2 * 0.35Cd drag, and 2000lbs of 
lead acid with peukert 1.05.  Gets 110 miles at 40mph.  This is not 
exactly "wow that's easy" but it exists on the edge of the envelope of 
"plausible" I suppose.



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:39:28 -0500
From: Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric cars from china
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

The domain is down and I can't find the version I viewed in Google
cache or Wayback machine, but ...

When Spark-EV was mentioned on EVDL a few weeks (month?) ago, I did
some research ... SparkEV is actually Wuzheng North America. At
www.wuzheng.com there was a page about Chinese-made commercial trucks
imported to the US, and at the bottom of the page was a link to
www.flyboEV.com, which actually redirected to SparkEV. It stood out in
my mind because the SparkEV page mentioned how they previously tried
to deal with a Chinese firm called Flybo to convert the vehicles, but
they had trouble getting delivery of the vehicles. The page wasn't at
all clear (to me at least) on whether they finally got Flybo vehicles
or if they went to someone else.

Now the Wuzheng domain has expired, so this is all from my recollection.

-Ben

On Feb 9, 2008 10:54 AM, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Compare
> http://spark-ev.com/quiet.html
> to
> http://flybo.en.alibaba.com/product/200052047/201099607/electric_vehicle/electric_car/showimg.html
>
> I think they're the same.  I vaguely recall seeing Spark-EV mention
> Flybo before.  Can't find the reference right now, but Spark-EV may be
> a distributer for Flybo.
>
> -Steven
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2008 8:12 PM, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > just ran across an electric car on alibaba and it seems they have
> > several models.
> > like this one:
> > http://flybo.en.alibaba.com/offerdetail/202436484/electric_vehicle/showimg.html
> > they are all NEVs or semi NEVs but still
> > search for 'electric car' to see them
> >
> > several smart replicas.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:51:45 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller, does this make sense?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rich Long wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 15:44 -0500, Josh Creel wrote:
>> Who else is making 144vdc controllers,  besides Curtis and zilla?
> 
> Belktronix.
> 
> I've got his 120v, but he does do 144v.  

He seems to be the little-known underdog around here. How do you like 
his controller?

--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:15:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging a 48 volt pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Yes, or get the mk440 to charge 4 batteries.

Jeff M


--- JRP3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> 
> Jeff Major wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi JRP3,
> > 
> > You have to have 12 volt chargers that are
> isolated,
> > output from input.  Most are because they have a
> > transformer inside.  Then you can leave the series
> > connection in place and charge.
> > 
> > I do this using Minn Kota chargers.  
> > 
> >
>
http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/chargers/detail.asp?pg=mk220
> > 
> 
> Just to be clear, these chargers are essentially two
> chargers in one, and
> for 4 batteries I'd use two chargers? 
> 



      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:16:35 -0500
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM should sell Volt "batteries not included"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

The BMS has to be designed for the battery used and the battery pack
is a buffer between the charger and the motor. Part of the efficiency
supposedly comes from running the engine at a relatively constant
output rather than the constantly varying output required for auto
operation.

Leasing the battery pack might be a viable option. Trade in your old
pack for the new and improved model next year.


> Lee Hart wrote:

> > So, I have a radical idea. Why doesn't GM supply the Volt *without
> > batteries*? It still runs as a gasoline car. It's lighter, cheaper, and
> > not much harder to build than any other car. They wouldn't have to spend
> > a penny on exotic battery R&D, and could introduce the Volt in the same
> > time frame as any other car.
> >

-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:20:10 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: MIKE WILLMON
> If I were going to build a battery tray 19.5"L x 37"W x 8" deep
> to hold 30 Enersys 12V XE16 batteries (425# total weight)...
> what thickness sheet metal should I use?

>From a simple strength of materials standpoint, even 24 gauge (0.025") steel 
>(or 0.040" aluminum) should be sufficient. However, you would have to shape it 
>appropriately to add stiffness. For example, corrugations in the sides and 
>partitions between the batteries across the bottom to keep it from sagging. 
>The 2" lip in the top would require special treatment.

> I want to have the sheet metal guy build a plain old straight
> rectangular box...

Then you would need somewhat thicker material just for stiffness. The bottom in 
particular would have to be very thick (and heavy) if you try to make it stiff 
enough with just thickness.

I'd suggest using the lighter sheet metal, but then adding thicker steel angle 
steel for the top 2" edge, and a few 1" square steel tubes as stiffeners for 
the bottom.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:27:00 -0800
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Why not make the box the old fashioned way: hardwood
Nearly all the early 20th century EVs used HW battery boxes.
Weight is reasonable as is strength, plus the box is electrically insulated,
which has advantage in case of shorts to case.
A couple examples (for 1921 Milburn Light Electric):
http://www.milburn.us/docs/27_instr-08.jpg
http://www.milburn.us/pics/ron1918_02b.jpg

-Myles Twete

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Frank John
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:49 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material

I would want to have a couple rows of thicker steel bar underneath that box
regardless of the size sheet metal you use.  The static weight is a
consideration but dynamic loads (think potholes) can increase loading by
several times.  You could build the box as described then support it and
perform dynamic testing (i.e. jump in it) to see how it reacts then stiffen
accordingly.  I would also plan to use bolted connections along the top.


----- Original Message ----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2008 2:36:29 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material


If 
I 
were 
going 
to 
build 
a 
battery 
tray 
19.5"L 
x 
37"W 
x 
8" 
deep 
to 
hold 
30  
Enersys  
12V 
XE16 
batteries 
(425# 
total 
weight) 
oriented 
in 
6 
rows 
of 
5 
batteries 
stacked 
length 
wise 
along 
the 
long 
side 
of 
the 
box......

If 
the 
box 
can't 
be 
strong 
enough 
to 
handle 
the 
weight 
without 
bowing 
or 
being 
too 
heavy, 
I'll 
add 
a 
couple 
small 
stiffner 
tubes 
across 
the 
bottom 
side.






 
____________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:37:04 -0800 (PST)
From: paul holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Minimum adapter plate size for Metro
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I'm just using a clutch-pedal-less setup.  Motor, adapter plate, motor
coupler, transmission shaft.  The plate is 0.5 inch thick.  It's a 72v
system.  12 hp continuous, 40 hp peak motor.

You people are an awesome resource, and I'm very grateful for your help.

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Help-Me%21%21-Minimum-adapter-plate-size-for-Metro-tp15350171p15373065.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:39:33 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=US-ASCII;       delsp=yes;      
format=flowed

Maybe a good idea if I were back in 1921. For the racing vehicle  
aluminum would  be best.

:  )




On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Myles Twete wrote:

> 1921 Milburn Light Electric



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:39:22 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] RE : spark EV
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Except that they're using $12,000 of Li-Poly (according to the admin
on the forum). The vehicle becomes much more viable from a technical
standpoint when it's got Lithium instead of Lead; then money is the
stickler.

I'd be willing to accept that he can buy enough Lithium for the
claimed range for only $12,000, if he's buying for many vehicles at
once. Especially if the range is measured at city speeds and it's only
60 miles at highway speeds.

If they spend $12,000 on batteries and $3,000 to $4,000 on a body,
that leaves $4,000 to $5,000 for motor, controller, misc. EV parts,
labor, and profit.

You can probably get a Chinese AC motor and controller for one or two
grand if you do it in bulk. I've seen an AC forklift motor/controller
for two grand, and that was German/American. It wouldn't have very
good performance for a car, but enough to drive a vehicle.

Still, $2,000 to $4,000 for misc. EV parts, labor, and profit isn't
very much, but it might be feasible.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Chuck Homic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> wayne alexander wrote:
>  > I agree with david, some how I smell a rat. If they can get 100 miles on 
> lead acid, I dont believe that at all,
>  I was playing with Jerry Halstead's EV calculator (my favorite ev calc):
>  http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
>
>  I came up with a 1200 lb vehicle, 18ft^2 * 0.35Cd drag, and 2000lbs of
>  lead acid with peukert 1.05.  Gets 110 miles at 40mph.  This is not
>  exactly "wow that's easy" but it exists on the edge of the envelope of
>  "plausible" I suppose.



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:46:55 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM should sell Volt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Morgan LaMoore
> A123/LiFePO4 is enough of a "superbattery" for now.

But it's too expensive, and doesn't have a proven track record. If GM used 
them, the Volt would be very expensive, and warranty costs are totally 
unpredictable.

> Personally, if I'm buying an OEM car, I would rather it come with an
> OEM Lithium pack instead of no batteries or Lead Acid. If GM has to
> subsidize part of the cost until battery prices drop, so be it.

GM doesn't have the money to subsidize it. If the Volt is too expensive, or 
needs subsidies to sell, GM won't build it.

> Undersized or weak packs in the Volt would just hurt EVs in the
> eyes of the public. People would remember the Volts with lackluster
> performance due to no battery or a heavy lead pack and it would turn
> them off to EVs.

The Toyota Prius has lackluster performance as an EV; weak acceleration, short 
range. That hasn't stopped it from becoming a runaway success.

I'm suggesting that GM could replace the expensive Prius 120 lbs nimh pack with 
a cheap 360 lbs lead-acid pack and have exactly the same electric range and 
performance. Let others build the expensive high-tech replacement packs to 
increase range and performance.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:51:45 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric cars from china
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sat, Feb 09, 2008 at 09:54:11AM -0600, Steven ** wrote:
> Compare
> http://spark-ev.com/quiet.html
> to
> http://flybo.en.alibaba.com/product/200052047/201099607/electric_vehicle/electric_car/showimg.html
> 
> I think they're the same.  I vaguely recall seeing Spark-EV mention
> Flybo before.  Can't find the reference right now, but Spark-EV may be
> a distributer for Flybo.

I seem to recall that Spark-EV said (posted somewhere on their website) 
that they had been buying from Flybo and then discovered that Flybo was 
a middleman with considerable mark-up.  And that Spark-EV went to 
Flybo's source.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  56 days  6 hours 48 minutes



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:14:36 -0800
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Yeah, context is everything...sorry I didn't catch that you were building a
racer.
Regardless, if it were me, I'd consider wood if space were available.

On aluminum, John Wayland's got good advice and experience in this.
I saw him pop a battery in 2006 in a race.
That same night 2 other batteries were popped including one in Otmar's
Orange "Poppy" Porsche and one in Dave Cloud's Geo, which unfortunately
caused a fire and caused a lot of fire damage.
The battery that Wayland popped was one of the ones near the dead center of
the aluminum battery housing.
And that is the spot you'd expect to get the hottest.
What struck me was the lack of any cooling at all other than thru the
thermal conduction of the aluminum shell.
The batteries were all jammed together.
This is not unusual.
Many or most of us simply cram batteries together.
And structurally, that's great.
However, for the drag racer, you need more.
John now has been air cooling his batteries between runs, and that's great.
Better would be to sandwich 1/4" aluminum honeycomb material between
batteries as well and to provide forced airflow between batteries.  Maybe
John's doing this now.  I believe Berube indicated he isolates and cools all
his batteries in a way similar.
Now would be the time to consider this as you're building and sizing your
box.

-Myles

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Tray Material

Maybe a good idea if I were back in 1921. For the racing vehicle  
aluminum would  be best.

:  )




On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Myles Twete wrote:

> 1921 Milburn Light Electric

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------------------------------

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