On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 03:50:42PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> What I mean is that their arithmetical property are independent
> of us. Do you think those people believe that the proposition
> "17 is prime" is meaningless without a human in the neighborhood?

Of course it is meaningless. Natural numbers are representation 
clusters by infoprocessing systems: currently machines or animals.
Pebbles can't count themselves, obviously.

No realization without representation.

I have no trouble seeing the universe as artifact from some production
system (but that metalayer be transcendent by definition), but assuming 
universe exists because numbers "exist" does strike me
as a yet another faith.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org";>leitl</a>
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
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