fact vs. value;
formal vs. informal;
precise vs. vague;
objective vs. subjective;
third person vs. first person;
computation vs. thought;
brain vs. mind;
David Chalmer's easy problem vs. hard problem of consciousness:

To me, this dichotomy remains the biggest mystery in science and philosophy. I have very reluctantly settled on the idea that there is a fundamental (=irreducible=axiomatic) difference here, which I know is something of a copout. I really would like to have one "scientific" theory that at least potentially explains "everything". As it is, even finding a clear way of stating the dichotomy is proving elusive.

Some previous posts in the current thread have attacked this idea by, for example, explaining ethics in terms of evolutionary theory or game theory, but this is like explaining a statement about the properties of sodium chloride in terms of the evolutionary or game theoretic advantages of the study of chemistry. Yes, you can legitimately talk about ethics or chemistry in these terms, but in so doing you are talking meta-ethics or meta-chemistry, which I think is what Bruno means by "level shift".

Stathis Papaioannou

From: Bruno Marchal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Modern Physical theory as a basis for Ethical and Existential Nihilism
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:27:40 +0100

At 14:54 29/01/04 +1100, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
(a) Dulce et decorum est/ Pro patria mori (Wilfred Owen)
(b) He died in the trenches during WW I from chlorine gas poisoning
The former conveys feelings, values, wishes, while the latter conveys facts. The former is not true or false in the same way as the latter statement is. This has always seemed obvious to me and it has been stated in one form or another by philosophers of an empiricist bent since David Hume. Does anyone subscribing to this list really disagree that (a) and (b) are different at some fundamental level?

I agree. I could even say that it is such nuance that I like to capture in some formal way
to make it clearer. Actually, without pretending it is exactly that, that fundamental difference
you single out here, is akin to the difference between first person and third person. But I quasi take
as an (uncommunicable as it may be) fact that there is such a deep difference.
Some will say "come on, the subjective apprehension cannot be formalised". True, but there
are tools to formalize, after some shift of level" things which are not formalizable, at the previous level. But my point here is that I agree the difference between a and b is fundamental.
Like I agree with your post where you say that science (per se) has nothing to say about ethic, which is different from saying that we cannot have a scientific attitude when discussing about ethic principle. I agree with you but that comforts my point: perhaps you would agree, for a time, even to take such a difference as an axiom?

What I really like in comp, is that grand-mother is just uneliminable; I mean grand-mother psychology, also called folk psychology (but then somehow if you look at the details you will see that grand-mother physics have to be eliminated...)


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