Dear Chris,

   Thank you for this post! Interleaving...

----- Original Message ----- From: "chris peck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: The Time Deniers and the idea of time as a "dimension"

Hi Stephen;

I have a couple of quesitions.

"Emulations involve some notion of a process and such are temporal. The idea that a process, of any kind, can "occur" requires some measure of both transitivity and duration. The mere *existence* of a process only speaks to its potential for occurrence."

Im not quite sure what you mean by this. Possibly you mean that to coherently describe time it isnt enough to have laid out in succession a series of moments, or events, described by real numbers or however. There must also be something running through the series in order for the concept of time to make any sense. If you like, there must be a 'now' - a temporal position of sorts - in which raw sensory experience - audio and vision perhaps - comes together synaesthetically into a coherent perspective and is then consigned to memory. Put another way, there are many strips of film one could thread through a projector but until one does so the well ordered sequence of frames remains static, time is not realised in any coherent way in a film until it is shown. I think that if this is what you mean (or close) i'ld like to add my support to you're objection.


What you seem to be considering is the distiction between 1st and 3rd person aspects! The "...laid out in succession a series of moments, or events, described by real numbers or however" is the 3rd person: The "view from the outside" of time. The 1st person aspect is: "running through the series in order for the concept of time to make any sense". This is the view from the inside in the sense that at any given "present moment" - 'now'- an observer (that has the capasity of making a report) will find itself within an experience. What ever the means are considered to generate that "experience", what does not change here is that the any observer will have a 1st person experience of something and within that experience there will be some means of distinguishing the overall content of that experience and some sense of somehow being seperate from it. It is this "seperateness" that, I believe, connect the 1st and 3rd person aspects and this is where the "inside" and "outside" framing obtains. One way of thinking of this is to consider a video game that is set up so that on can switch between seeing the computer generated scene, as one "moves around", from the point of view of "where the eyes are" to the point of view of a camera "floating overhead". What remained the same in the switching?

However, you might mean that there must be some sense of duration and transitivity within each individual moment. If you like, a series of events (frames, real numbers) which individually have no duration (or sense of transition) can not therefore collectively be considered to obtain such properties. I disagree with that. duration and transitivity can obtain accross a span of events, and to be strict I dont undestand the requirement for change at all.


No, if we are taking the notion of a moment to an infinitesimal "slice". It seems that in our eagerness to mathematize everything in sight, we neglect the consequences that obtain. Numbers by themselves do not naturally code for the operations on those numbers. We can arbitrarily assign some number to "+", "-", etc. as we find in Goodel numbering, but this is not natural, it must be assigned "by hand"! Thus we find ourselves in the predicament of having to account for where the notions of duration and transitivity come from. As to the requirement of change, I am claiming that we must have some prior notion of change, at least the potential to change, in order to have a coherent notion of transitioning from one "frame", number, Observer Moment, Time capsule, or whatever. Even is we are going to use numbers, the simplest of the ideas here, we have to have some "change" between the numbers themselves as some quantity to relations between the numbers. The mere existence of quantities is not sufficient to include both the numbers themselves and the relationships between them (the latter including the operations on the numbers). Figuratively, somewhere somehow, there must be included some form of change.

'Time, from what I have studied so far, involves two distinct notions: a "measure of change" and an "order of succession".'
I can see that time involves an 'order of succession'. I dont see that time is a 'measure of change', if by that you mean that time depends on change to exist. I can concieve an infinate universe consisting of a solitary glove over time, a universe in which there are moments but no change. Awareness of time might not be possible in the absense of change, but that is not the same thing as time not existing. Moreover, it seems odd to insist - if you are insisting - that events (frames, real numbers) change rather than the just the substances which characterise the event itself.


What is a "clock" if not an means to measure change? Time is not the change itself, it is the valuation of that change. Change is what is taken to be a priori in the notion of time; in requers some process of differentiation. "Distance" is a measure of extention, requiring some prior co-existence of differenciable entities. The how and the why of this differenciation is what we need to look at carefully. We can assume that the differentiated entities exist a priori, like numbers, but if we errace all vestiges of a means to "know a difference" such as an observer, what coherence remains?
   Numbers, in-themselves (dasein), are meaningless.

In boiling water, the water (substance) changes temperature, the event at which all the water has passed temperature 'd' requires no inherent 'becoming' to make sense temporally, it just needs to 'identify' the state of the water at that time, doesnt it?


Your claim here depends on looking only at an abstract slice 'd' that has some quantitative value within some assumed coordinate system; temperature vs. time. This is going back to the cellular automata results where I pointed out that the range of values over the checker board of results can only be taken after the act of rendering the result, not prior to it. Does a "history"" include values that can be associated with either of McTaggart's A or B series? No! It has boundaried at some initial point and spans to some "present moment". Again, we are considering an order of events after the fact of their ordering. The "measure of change" aspect goes from the 1st person aspect of "being there as the history was happening" to the 3rd person aspect of comparing the events at one date of a history to another.


Kindest regards,


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