Hi  Bruno,

> Now look at science.
> We do correlations of perceptual artefacts = _contents_ of phenomenal 
> consiousness to the point of handing out _Nobel prizes_ for depictions 
> of correlated artefacts of our phenomenal fields.
> we deny phenomenal consciousness? Declare it unassailable by science? 
> Delude ourselves that these descriptions actually contain causal 
> necessity?

Who does that?


The entire suite of practical empirical science does that. Walk the halls. Find 
_any_ scientist at the coal face and ask. What planet are you from? Before your 
breath has finished the asking sentence you will be told you are not being 

I don't think that, in this list, you will find someone 
denying phenomenal consciousness.

Since when has the data found on this list been _any_ scientific source of 
confirmation of anythng? This list is specifically more likely to include 
people admitting to a reality of phenomenal consciousness! They are not the 
ones that need their brains adjusted: It's mainstream science that needs the 
therapy ....we are the therapists.

But I don't understand what you mean by causal necessity, especially 
when you say that:

> We have phenomenal consciousness, the most obvious, egregious 
> screaming evidence of the operation of that causal necessity - the 
> same causal necessity that results in the desciption F = MA being 
> found by Newton...

I think you need to (aghast) do some physics or something with a real empirical 
edge to it. ALL our scientific 'laws' are tautologies in relation to statisical 
generalisations that don;t actually exist - like 'Ms Average'. F = MA is 
exactly that.

NONE of these laws say WHY. They only say WHAT. WHY = necessity/causality.
There is causal necessity behind EVERYTHING, not just consiousness. Again- are 
you even in the same universe as me? Whatever generates 'everything' generates 
phenomenal consciousness as well. You think there is one bucnh of happenstance 
for phenomenal consciousness and another for eveything else? = dualist delusion.
If you think the universe is run by emprical laws = rationalist delusion. If 
you think the universe is run by a symbolic crunching machine = 
computationalist delusion.

These are all unfounded ascrptions and have no evidenntiary basis other than 
the reconfigured brain matter that results from a belief.

I am talking about real, supportable verifyable science of the natural world.

I tend to believe in some causal necessity related to consciousness, 
but I have no evidence that F=MA has anything to do with that. I guess 
you are postulating the existence of some "primitive" physical 
universe, aren't you?

I am talking about the natural world, in which we are embedded, of which we are 
made as the situation inwhich we must understand the natural world. If you 
think that you are 'outside' looking in: another delusion = you think you are 
GOD. :-)

I don't pretend that this is obvious, but the missing 50% of science is 
not phenomenological consciousness (in this list).

You are making another rationalist ascription. You assume that mathematical 
abstractions are the object of scientific endeavours. WRONG. You assume that 
fiddling with computation about will somehow bestow access to the ultimate 
explanation.  You are not talking about science of the natural world - you are 
talking about the science of some other world. You assume the link between them 
without justification and without any proof.

Proof: Just watch it come. With empirical evidence from neuroscience. I'm happy 
to wait until then (it may take a decade or so) and then say 'I told you so'.

BTW I used to think the same way as you..... I have been on a huge journey. I 
spent 25 years puting computers in control of the real world. All I can say is: 
deal with human embeddedness , HERE in our natural world, fully, 
comprehensively and you will get answers. Staring at maths and running symbols 
will not do it. The computer chips neede to make a conscious machine have not 
been invented yet and they will be VERY different to all von-neumann, parallel 
and quantum computing architectures.

My morning bombast session is over... time for coffee!

cheers  :-)

Colin Hales

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