`Thank you Jose, for your slightly more civilised approach to my`

`(admittedly) provocative thought about music's relation to our`

`discussion on this list. Many people would argue (Edward de Bono as a`

`primary example) that the whole meaning of any artistic product is`

`the meaning that our minds bring to bear on it, whatever the author`

`says. If that is "true" then the whole of art is a 1st person`

`experience and cannot be reduced to anything else. I take it that we`

`are investigating the ultimate mystery of 1st person experience`

`(amongst other things) here. My point of view on that is surely as`

`valid as yours since neither you nor I can appreciate (ie experience)`

`each other's experience of anything.`

`I feel that a little provocation from an "outsider" would actually`

`help the discussion find new and fertile terrain - this is called`

`lateral thinking. If you reject without some form of investigation`

`the notion that music is encoded mathematical reality then I feel`

`very sad for you. Many musicaians have striven to understand the link`

`between music and mathematics. You cannot "play" a quadratic equation`

`on your piano. Yet you can appreciate a melody by Mozart or a guitar`

`break by Joe Satriani in JUST THE SAME WAY that you experience the`

`elegance of a mathematical sentence. Do not physicists and`

`mathematicians have a certain feeling for "elegance" and`

`"symmetry"???? Is it not at least slightly interesting that composers`

`and other artists strive for something like that as well????? What if`

`we are all talking the same language but simply don't have the`

`intellectual grunt to PERCEIVE that?`

`Notating music is a very simple problem for a computer to solve,`

`admittedly. Composing music is a very controversial problem that`

`people are trying to enlist the help of machines to solve at this`

`time. UNDERSTANDING music takes a n EDUCATION in it. Just like`

`understanding math requires a solid grounding in that discipline.`

`Do not undedrestimate the power of the simple. There is a lot of talk`

`on this list about complexity but I have had enough dialogues with`

`other minds to be convinced that simplicity is a higher value in life`

`than complexity. After all, simplicity and elegance is what`

`physicists and philosophers are hankering after.`

`Musicians have been dealing in that since the time of Machaut in the`

`15th century. Let's get together and talk seriously about this link.`

`There is something vaguely ridiculous about playing this eternal game`

`of trying to "prove" each other wrong.`

`There are quite as many points of view on this issue as there are`

`heads in the room thinking about it. There is great meaning in what`

`you say. There is great meaning in what I say. Don't ATTACK me and I`

`promise not to attack you.`

Kim Jones On 31/12/2005, at 5:17 PM, Jose Ramón Brox wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>So apparently those who do not scale the dizzying heights of metamathematics have no hope of understanding reality?I never said that, but you simply can't take a theorem about aspecific area, that is truewithin a context and take it out from that context to try to use it"in reality", to"give" social explanations. That's what pseudoscience do.I will say that without mathematical (not methamatematical)knowledge, one cannot aspireto understand reality (in the terms a physic understand it).There will come a time very soon when all of this comp stuff will need to be translated into terms the LAYman can understand easily. Russell Standish has already made the attempt. I appreciate gratly his attempt. Stop wanking off that mathematics is the ONLY script in which reality is encoded. It could well turn out to be music.You are thinking it the other way around - the incorrect one. Musicis a small, small partof physics, and therefore, it's represented by a (quite simple)mathematical model.Reality is more complex than that model, and other aspects ofreality can be modelled bymath different from the one used in the music model, so the realitycan't turn out to bemusic in that sense.Well, I'm speaking about the mechanical phenomena of music, thatare simple, not about theway our brains interpret it, that can be quite complex andenjoyable (that's why we sayit's an art). Jose