Bruno wrote:
Jeanne Houston wrote:
   I am a layperson who reads these discussions
out of avid interest, and I hope that someone
will answer a question that I would like to ask
in order to enhance my own understanding.
   There is an emphasis on AI running through
these discussions, yet you seem to delve into
very philosophical questions.  Are the philosophical
discussions applicable to the development of AI

I would say so, but probably not in a predictible way
... Today the reverse is still more true.

(i.e., trying to grasp all aspects of the mind of
man if you are trying to develop a true copy),

... or in some indirect way perhaps, by giving evidences
that no man can grasp all aspect of man, so that if we
make a copy, some bets or hopes, or faith, or things
like that are in order.

 or are they only interesting diversions that pop-up from
time to time.  My thanks to anyone who wishes to respond.

Jeanne Houston

I do use explicitly the computationailist hypothesis
(the thesis that I am a machine) which is stronger
than the strong AI thesis (machine can think).
Actually I am no more in need of comp (I realised
that my theory works for a large variety of non-machines),
but, still, with the comp hyp, the reasoning is simpler.


We can't JUST DO things (like AI).  Whenever we DO things, we are
THINKING ABOUT them. I'd venture to say that HOW WE THINK ABOUT
(e.g. philosophy, epistemology, etc.) is even MORE important that
THINGS (engineering, sales, etc.).  That is one way of looking at the
advantage that we humans have over machines. We have the capability
not just do things, but to know why we are doing them.  This runs
counter to the whole PHILOSOPHY (mind you) of modern science, that we
are simply machines, and that there is no WHY. This modern
if taken to its extreme, is the death of the humanness.

Tom Caylor

Jef Allbright wrote:
To realize that we are "just" machines in a physical world, and that
this validates and enhances--rather than diminishes--the romance, the
meaning, and the mystery of human existence, is a very empowering

To travel into the void, leaving behind myths and tradition, and then
to emerge from the void, to see that all is as it was, but standing on
physical law, both known and not yet known, is to gain the freedom to

- Jef
Increasing awareness for increasing morality

Brent Meeker wrote:
I think you've got it the wrong way 'round.
The view of modern science is that we are
machines and machines can do philosophy and
know they are doing it and can have reasons why.
It is the death of human hubris - which may
eventually succumb to the wounds it has
received since Copernicus.

Brent Meeker

So Bruno says that:
a) "I am a machine."
b) " man can grasp all aspect of man"

Tom says that to philosophize is one aspect of humanness that is more than a machine (i.e. simply following a set of instructions).

Jef and Brent say that we are machines who (that?) philosophize.

Brent says that realizing we are machines is the beginning of (or another step in) the death of human hubris (arrogance).

I thought that Bruno maintains that humility is on the side of realizing that we cannot totally understand ourselves.

Pascal, "Reason can begin again when we recognize what we cannot know."

Could we try to make sense of this, given that we believe in sense?


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