Georges wrote:

So Bruno says that:
a) "I am a machine."
b) " man can grasp all aspect of man"

Tom says that to philosophize is one aspect of
humanness that is more than a machine (i.e.
simply following a set of instructions).

Jef and Brent say that we are machines
who (that?) philosophize.

Brent says that realizing we are machines is the
beginning of (or another step in) the death of
human hubris (arrogance).

I thought that Bruno maintains that humility
is on the side of realizing that we cannot
totally understand ourselves.

Pascal, "Reason can begin again when we
recognize what we cannot know."

Could we try to make sense of this, given that we believe in sense?


Given that we believe in sense? 
Who/what gives that? 
Do we believe in that? 

Georges, you are using sense by asking those questions.

OK, we don't have to use any of those scary words like sense and reason and faith. We're just trying to get at reality. Or are people starting to get nihilistic? Have a little faith (oops) and let's talk.

I suggest we start out by concentrating on the fact that Brent and Jef don't agree with Bruno's b) above. (And also perhaps Bruno doesn't agree with himself (Bruno's a) vs. b) above)). If we truly are machines, then by definition we should be able to (in theory) figure out the "list of instructions" that we follow. But wouldn't this be grasping all aspects of ourselves? If not, then what part of ourselves is outside of the realm of being able to grasp, and if so, how can we say we are machines in a totally closed rationalistic/naturalistic world? Brent and Jef's paragraphs sound mystical to me, as mystical as any other "first truth" assumption.


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