Georges Quénot wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Georges Quenot wrote:
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>> Georges wrote:
> >>>>> - The multiverse is isomorphic to a mathematical object,
> >>>> This has to be saying simply that the multiverse IS a mathematical
> >>>> object.
> >>>> Otherwise it is nonsense.
> >>> No, because all mathematical objects, as mathematical objects
> >>> exist (or don't exit) on an equal basis. Yet the universe is only
> >>> isomorphic to one of them. It has real existence, as opposed
> >>> to the other mathematical objects which are only abstract.
> >> That is the question.
> >>
> >> That "[The universe] has real existence, as opposed to the
> >> other mathematical objects which are only abstract." is what
> >> I called a dualist view.
> >
> > Dualism says there are two really existing realms or substances.
> > Saying the physical realm is concrete and real and the mathematical
> > realm is abstract and unreal is not dualism.
>
> This *splits* "things" into "realness" and "abstractedness".

No abstract "objects" aren't real things at all. There is only
one kind of existing thing, ie real, physical things.

> It postulates "material substance"

yes, but only material substance. Hence it is monism, not dualism.

> just as classical dualism
> postulates a "spiritual substance"

as well as a material substance.

> (and just as once vitalism
> postulated a "living substance").
>
> Last but not least: you are unable to explain what you mean
> bt "real" except by a tautology or via a reference to common
> sense that no longer appears to be consensual.


I am not sure what you mean by "non-consensual". Everyone believes
that sticks and stones and what they had for breakfast are real.

> >> Both view seem to have their champions here. I guesse that
> >> when saying "This has to be saying simply that the multiverse
> >> IS a mathematical object." Tom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) defends
> >> the monist view as obvious and the only one making sense while
> >> when saying "[The universe] has real existence, as opposed
> >> to the other mathematical objects which are only abstract."
> >
> > Well, I've never seen a mathematical object. Have you
> > ever seen the number 3?
>
> Have you ever seen a single photon? Or even an electron?

They can be detected by apropriate instrumentation.

> Do you descend from the ape by your father or by your mother?
> :-)

> You may find the monist idea crazy or a nonsense but it does
> not (completely) appear as such to everybody.

The Devil is in the details. I await mathematical-monist accounts of
consciousness, causality and time.

> Georges.


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