Le 24-mars-06, à 16:31, 1Z a écrit :

>
>
> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> Le 20-mars-06, à 00:04, John M a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> A Turing machine does nothing (by itself). Don't take
>>> the power for granted. Something has to OPERATE it to
>>> do anything.
>>
>>
>> Why?  How could a digital machine distinguish reality, virtual 
>> reality,
>> arithmetical reality, etc.
>
> The question is about what computers are , form a 3rd-person
> perspective,
> not about what a machine would see from its own 1st person perspective.
> We know we have a 1st person perspecitve, and we have 3rd person
> knowledge
> of computers. That is the perspective of John's question. You question
> is
> from a machine's 1st person perspective. We don't even know that
> digitial computers have a 1st-person perspective.


It is our assumption. "I" am conscious and "I" am turing emulable. So 
some machine "can think".





> Your question might
> not even
> be valid.

It is enough that the reasoning be valid. If we get a contradiction, we 
will abandon comp.



>
>
>>> Bruno:
>>> let me draw your attention to one little phrasing in
>>> Hal's (and everybody else's, I presume, as I read
>>> these posts)- text:
>>> "If we assume..."
>>> And if we do not?
>>
>>
>> You will miss the consequences of the assumption. All science is based
>> on implicit or explicit assumption, related to (non definable)
>> world-views.
>
> Almost all science is based on the implicit assumption of a "stuffy"
> world view.



No. This is a simplifying methodological assumption, but there is no 
evidence it is necessary. Few physicists use it. Except the week-end 
when they doesn't want to be copnfronted with tricky foundational 
problems. True, the idea that there is a stuffy universe, and that 
"real" = what we measure, is in vogue since Aristotle, but it is 
incompatible with comp (this has been proved, I am not speculating. I 
can prove it to you if you are interested).





> Therefore, the burden of proof is on those who seek to deny it.


As I just said the proof already exists. See my url). (Not all realises 
this, and I don't insist because I like the idea of others finding it 
by themselves). But see my url or ask me. I don't pretend it is simple, 
but unless denying the 1-3 difference people who study it understand 
it, in general.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/


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