John, Le 16-juil.-06, à 18:07, John M a écrit :

> Bruno: > > 1. And if someones (1-?)personal "taste" does not > accept the (and only) math ways? > Can I say: I am right and the rest of the world is > wrong? I will ask her/him why. If she/he answers me that she believes in some strong form of NON-COMP, I will say ok, no problem, etc. But if she pretends to accept comp then SHE MUST be happy. Why? because the "only math", at the third person description level, gives a guarantee that, strictly speaking, the "only math" philosophy is false. Indeed, once you take comp seriously enough, you can give a complete 3-person (scientific) justification that the first person is beyond all possible mathematical theories. In some sense, Godel's incompleteness and Loewenheim theorems already justified this for the "natural number" or "finiteness" quale; like I have tried to illustrated recently somehow. I insist on that: comp is a vaccine against a very large variety of reductionism. People who believes that comp is a reductionism are in general confusing comp with "comp + (weak) materialism". I recall weak materialism is Aristotle's doctrine according to which there is a primitive matter at the ontological bottom. This (comp+mat) *is* reductionist, and could lead to first person eliminativism. Of course this lead to some counter-intuitive facts: like the fact that the first person plenitude is bigger than anything we can conceive and still, is "contained" in the standard interpretation of the natural numbers with usual addition and multiplication. This is a mathematical fact: many mathematical structure are like that: from outside they look minuscule and miserable; from inside they look immeasurably gigantic. Later we will perhaps get the opportunity to say more on this phenomenon which I called a long time ago the Wonderland or Yellow Submarine effects because they are poetically well illustrated in those pieces of art. Even just a book has already that feature. From outside it looks like a finite volume cylinder, but when you open it, it could be a path to the infinite understanding of everything ... 'course this is only an analogy. > > 2.You mention Occam, I was in love with him for many > years. Now: I consider his razor-cut "essence" as a > simulacron, a limited model of the content I just want > to consider (talk abouit), keaving out any further > ramifications as 'only obscuring the clear view'. My heart is with you, and this is probably the reason I take years to present my work without invoking Occam Razor (and that is why the Movie-graph should be included in UDA). Still, there is a sense we *use* OCCAM all the time relatively to the "empirical world", for example we believe that if we take a fork on a table, we tend to believe the simplest explanation for such a possibility, like "there is fork on the table". And we don't believe in invisible horse pulling the cars or things like that. The use of Occam principle's is also easily explainable with Darwin: costly theories cost. And the eighth step is made easier with Occam, so, at least for beginners, I indulge in invoking it. But strictly speaking we can avoid it, and that is why I talk of a proof (that comp -> reversal), not just an argument, still less a speculation. Like the proof that sqrt(2) is not rational: you don't need Occam for that. > Do we want to "see clearly" the part we want to see > clearly? Are "all possible cases" the selection we > want (or can) include? By "we" what do you mean? "Us" the Hungarians? "Us" the Europeans? "Us" the occidentals? "Us" the humans? "Us" the homeotherm animals ? (about those who dream according to Jouvet) "Us" the living creature? "Us" the conscious creature? "Us" the Lobian machine? "Us" the machines? "Us" the self-referentially correct machines "us" the self-referentially correct entities "Us" the numbers (who can't really believe that their are numbers)? "Us" the persons? When I use "us" in a reasoning, I always mean by default the lobian machines/numbers (assuming comp explicitly or implicitly), or their associated first person. The "all possible cases" is then handled thanks to Church thesis/Godel's miracle/Post Law. Reductionism is defeated through the mathematical theory of our (cf above) mathematical and non mathematical 3 and 1 limitations. Comp and Church thesis makes it possible to study the mathematical structure describing "our" ignorance, and this is useful given that the UD-Argument shows that the physical laws emerge from that universal intrinsic lobian ignorance. I stop here. I think I should made some effort to make shorter posts! Regards, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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