George wrote an admirably wise note and you picked positively on the roadmap with the fruitful mind of a logician.
It looks like you both start out from "not agreeing because of non-understanding math sufficiently" - which may be true, but not necessarily the "real" root.
I think many of us have the wrong information about 'math' in question. You called "numbers" the series of '1,2,3...many' and "we" think 'math' is a manipulation of such, even if many substitute and functional symbols are used.
My question (and I asked it several times here and on diverse other lists and got no satisfactory answer) - still prevails:
What are (in the new meaning) NUMBERS - how can we handle the non-number concepts by numbers - (whatever they are)? Rephrased: What is the 'new' meaning of "math" and how can non-math concepts be handled by math?
Norman touched it, 1Z goes around it, David Bohm even went that far as to state: numbers (and so math) are human inventions, probably based on Plato, who made the biggest (philosophical) argument - as the product of HIS mind.
Words are loaded with different meanings and people tend to use their favorite - mostly from the mother tongue. I admire George's open mind accepting the diverse positions and I am also no missionary who wants to convert people, but even if I think differently, I like to follow the mental ways of others. It may add usefully to my own thinking.
So I propose a 'starting' point to the 'roadmap':
How may one consider the new version(s) of number and math instead of the arithmetic-based and binary computer founded conventional ignorance? (It is not a 101 course what this list should be above, it may draw in 'more-sided' opinions into the discussion - which is now pretty much on the math - physics base only. Extending to other planes of 'everything'.)
Then we may proceed in understanding the 'stuffy' matter (as e.g.. a photon - ha ha) and the physicists' concepts mostly based on some mathematical application, including the most esoteric 'everything' topics.
After all that I may try to speak about my ways how I am not in controversy with all that - only regarding it as a partial view of the totality (which is hard to talk about). Not for converting you or others, just for proving to myself some (Levy-type) sanity.
So how should I include the validity of a legal opinion into the numbers? How should I 'comp'(?) the feeling of love? How should I 'materialize' (physically?) the beauty of a sunset?
(all without flattening those qualia into a quantitative plane)?
Eager to learn
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- Re: K the Master Set (+ partial answer to Tom's Diagonalizat... John M