Le 12-août-06, à 09:56, Colin Geoffrey Hales a écrit :

>
> BTW Plato followed Heraclitus, who was already onto this.



I put Heraclitus in the "first person or time central" people. I am not 
sure it makes sense to say follows Heraclitus (although he deliver some 
nice text defending that views). As I said, "my" Plato is mainly the 
one from "Parmenides", who defends the opposite view.

But then I agree with all your post. (So I will not comment, except the 
end):




> <snip>



> Therefore we have not one but 2 scientifically accessible realms of
> scientific description of the natural world:
>
> 1) Statistics that are correlation of appearances
> 2) Statistics that are depictions of structure
>
> Qualia are produced by 1) and enable 2) and tie both descriptions
> intimately together as a consistent set. Currently we call 1) science 
> and
> slag off at 2) as 'mere metaphysics' or theology.



... or just "theory" (this can be pejorative enough in the mind of some 
"scientist").





> This is just soooo
> wrong! Indeed at least in a linguistic sense 2) is physics and 1) is
> meta-physics (about it)! :-)
>
> So...
>
> "Since this deeper, unknown reality must forever be inaccessible to our
> direct probing"
>
> ...is quite correct, but that does not stop us doing valid science on 
> the
> structure! Put another way this limitation in access does not justify
> calling attempts to formulate theories of the structure as non-science.


Yes sure. And in particular, once we *ASSUME* the comp hyp, then we can 
explain, a bit paradoxically, the very nature of the "deeper unknown 
reality" and why it is and remains inaccessible to our direct probing 
(yet refutable by many indirect probing).



>
> Can you see how riddled with historical baggage our thinking is, how
> biased our language is? This crazy situation has been going on for 2500
> years. enough already!


And here I disagree. I am less desperate than you. I would say the 
crazy situation has been going for about 1500 years, when the Roman 
closed Plato's School in Athene, and transformed "theology" into what 
today many people thinks it is: a socio-political domain where 
scientists are still invited not to reason about.

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/


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