Your individual 'believing' the invisible horses (excellent parable) -
when learned physics etc., will not 'deny' even the necessity of those
invisible horses: he will "EXPLAIN" and CALCULATE what they are in his
belief-system of the invisible horses.
That is exactly what the developing physical sciences do in their
reductionist development. They do not 'substitute' (deny) the old
superstitions, rather explain them and calculate them with the newer
superstitions. In most cases (entropy, energy, etc.) even the names are
retained. (Laplace was an extraordinary revolutionist).

A nasty question: Do you NOT rename (explain) "primary matter"  by numbers?
(as YOUR initiational concept?) or, as you called it:
(>"mathematical coherence of the computations". <)
Aren't numbers- (computations? in UDA's views) the 'new' invisible horses, -
or God's creation? i.e. the 'origin' of everything? I agree with your logic:
the thought does not 'eliminate' the invisible horses, but many 'scientists'
are in parallel religious believers (maybe also of creationism).

In my world(view) matter is our interpretation of phenomena and even regular
physics can prove it by going down the particulate ladder ending up in no
matter-like fundamentals (I discount the semantic joke calling (wavelike?)
Q-entities  a 'particle' - even if so, it is not a matter-particle). Perfect
duplication is in my views not feasible, because in the incessantly changing
everything a duplication would be performed under "not-identical"
circumstances to the original template-circumstances. I speak about infinite
wholistic interconnectedness here.

I changed the Subject-line, because I don't want to aggravate "Father Ted".

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruno Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

Le 23-oct.-06, à 15:58, David Nyman a écrit :

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> Here I disagree, or if you want make that distinction (introduced by
>> Peter), you can sum up the conclusion of the UD Argument by:
>> Computationalism entails COMP.
> Bruno, could you distinguish between your remarks vis-a-vis comp, that
> on the one hand: a belief in 'primary' matter can be retained provided
> it is not invoked in the explanation of consciousness,

Imagine someone who has been educated during his entire childhood with
the idea that anything moving on the road with wheels is pulled by
invisible horses. Imagine then that becoming an adult he decides to
study physics and thermodynamics, and got the understanding that there
is no need to postulate invisible horses for explaining how car moves
Would this "proves" the non existence of invisible horses? Of course
no. From a logical point of view you can always add irrefutable
hypotheses making some theories as redundant as you wish. The
thermodynamician can only say that he does not need the invisible
horses hypothesis for explaining the movement of the cars , like
Laplace said to Napoleon that he does not need the "God hypothesis" in
his mechanics. And then he is coherent as far as he does not use the
God concept in is explanation.

The comp hypothesis, which I insist is the same as standard
computationalism (but put in a more precise way if only because of the
startling consequences) entails that "primary matter", even existing,
cannot be used to justify anything related to the subjective
experience, and this includes any *reading* of pointer needle result of
a physical device. So we don't need the postulate it.
And that is a good thing because the only definition of primary matter
I know (the one by Aristotle in his metaphysics) is already refuted by
experiments and theory (QM or just comp as well).

> and on the
> other: that under comp 'matter' emerges from (what I've termed) a
> recursively prior 1-person level. Why are these two conclusions not
> contradictory?

'Matter', or the stable appearance of matter has to emerge from the
"mathematical coherence of the computations". This is what the UDA is
supposed to prove. Scientifically it means that you can test comp by
comparing some self-observing discourses of digital machines (those
corresponding to the arithmetical translation of the UDA (AUDA)) with
empirical physics. Again this cannot disprove the ("religious") belief
in Matter, or in any Gods, for sure.

>> You will have to attach
>> consciousness to actual material infinite.
> Why is this the case?

Because it is a way to prevent the UDA reasoning (at least as currently
exibited) to proceed. It makes sense to say that some actual material
infinity is not duplicable, for example. To be sure, the AUDA would
still work (but could be less well motivated).


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