See please interspaced remarks " (JM)" as well.
General addition I would start with:
"In our present views, based on the limited capabilities of the mind-brain 
activity we can only muster for the time being..."
(Our mental event-horizon reaches only so far)
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell Standish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: UDA revisited


>
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2006 at 02:36:04PM +1100, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>
>> But if a physical universe is needed to run the UD, without a physical 
>> universe
>> there is no UD. It's a circular argument unless you have some other 
>> argument
>> showing a computation can run without physical hardware.
>>
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> The argument is that its "turtles all the way down", or in other words
> that there is no first cause.

(JM):
At least not within our present mental horizon. "All possible things" are 
not restricted to our present knowledge-limits. An expression like "there is 
none" seems like a current  'theory-based' exaggeration.
>
> It seems that there are three possibilities:
>
> 1. Causal chains are infinite and unbounded
> 2. Causal chains are infinite but bounded (the causal chain is
> circular).
> 3. Casual chains are finite and bounded (first cause is needed)
>
> Only in case 3 is a physical universe needed to run the UD. My
> personal taste is for case 2, but I doubt there is any way of
> empirically settling the matter, and many people find all 3 >options 
> distasteful.

(JM):
In my 'wholeness-view' (not yet realizable) #1 is the version.
"Cause" in this case is the impact-result of the ever changing totality, 
while any other (picked?) cause(s) are within a model-view.
#2 seems to me like 'eat your cake and have it' .
"Empirically based"? do we include mental experiencing to exceed the 
'physical world based (conventional) observation figment?
Even 'logically acceptable' seems restricted to our human ways.
I resort to the (humble) position that we are not (yet?)  set to say a 
'final' word upon more remote features than how far our present mental event 
horizon reaches. (Turtle is OK).
In spite of a '-*nescio* non est scientia-' (my version) maxim.
>
> Cheers

(JM)
Cheers - John
>
> PS - I'll need to think a bit about Colin's post... :)
>
> -- 
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Mathematics
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052                  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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