Le 23-nov.-06, à 03:48, Colin Geoffrey Hales a écrit :

> I am going to try and clarify a little my previous post in bullet form 
> so
> that the smelly bits can be singled out. I want to make sure I am 
> making
> sense. If I do then break out the champagne! A rare occurrence, even 
> to me
> :-)
>
> 1) There is a platonic realm of number. Call it NUM, where numbers are
> real and existence is the act of numerical computation and,
> simultaneously, theorem proving in relation to numbers.


I would separate completely "computations" which is an absolute notion 
(at least with Church thesis), and "proof" which has sense only 
relatively to the choice of a formal system, or theory, or machine.


>
> 2) There is a real realm of STUFF, where STUFF is real and existence is
> also the act of computation and, simultaneously, theorem proving in
> relation to STUFF.

I stop here because that sentence does not convey sense for me.

Also, I have read your paper which is much better written compared to 
this post (for example). I am not convinced by your argument because 
you don't take into account the whole field of "computational inductive 
inference(*)" which explains why machine can be very creative in front 
of novelty. Nevertheless I do agree with you; zombie cannot do science. 
But your argument is not so clear, at first sight it could give the 
feeling that it shows comp (or even just the weaker "strong AI") has to 
be false. Your appendix is less readable, so give me more time to 
figure out better the line of reasoning ....




>
> 3) We STUFF-beings are theorems in the continual unfolding proof that 
> is
> the STUFF realm.


?



>
> 4) NUM-beings, creatures of equivalent cognitive/intellectual 
> capability,
> would be continual unfolding proofs in the NUM realm.


Replacing proof by computation would make sense here.


>
> 5) We STUFF-beings can abstract the NUM realm and examine it logically 
> and
> computationally the various features of the NUM realm including
> NUM-beings.
>
> 6) NUM-beings could abstract the STUFF realm and examine it logically 
> and
> computationally the various features of the STUFF realm including
> STUFF-beings.
>
> 7) We STUFF-beings can imagine a STUFF-UD that can computationally 
> explore
> the entire NUM realm.  The NUM-beings in the STUFF-UD are not 
> conscious,
> but because STUFF-beings are external to the STUFF-UD, they have a god
> perspective on the NUM realm.
>
> 8) NUM-beings can likewise imagine a NUM-UD that can computationally
> explore the entire STUFF-realm. The STUFF-beings in the NUM-UD are not
> conscious, but because NUM-beings are external to the NUM-UD, they 
> have a
> god perspective on the STUFF realm.
>
> 9) In the case of 7) and 8) this exploration does not create a NUM 
> realm
> or a STUFF realm, respectively.
>
> 10) STUFF-realm behaviour can be modelled in NUM-realm abstractions by
> STUFF-being scientists. This is STUFF-science. Likewise NUM-realm
> behaviour can be modelled in STUFF-realm 'abstractions' by NUM-being
> scientists. This is NUM-science.
>
> 11) In this circumstance if 1)...10) , 'computationalism' in the 
> classical
> computer science (strong-AI) sense is false in the NUM realm for
> NUM-beings and in the STUFF realm for STUFF-beings.
>
> This is where I really falter.....
>
> 12) What has been termed COMP, however, is the hypothesis that the act 
> of
> exploration in 5) and 6) reveals all the features of the realms thus
> explored, not that computation actually creates the realms.
>
> erm....ish.
> clues anyone?
>
> regards,


What do you mean by STUFF ?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/


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