Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Peter Jones writes:

> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > Peter Jones writes:
> >
> > > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > >
> > > > Although you have clearly stated that the two ideas - consciousness
> > > > supervening on all physical processes and consciousness supervening on
> > > > no physical process - are completely different I think they are related 
> > > > that in both cases matter is irrelevant to consciousness,
> > >
> > > In the second case, matter is relevant to consc. since it is
> > > relevant to physical processes.
> >
> > Did you mean "in the first case..."?
> >
> > Matter is irrelevant to the extent that any piece of matter will do for a 
> > and a change in the matter does not change the computation - unless you are
> > considering the special subset where the computation interacts with the 
> > of its implementation, which is all the computations we are ever going to 
> > by definition.
> It is a mistake to infer that matter does not matter at all, that it is
> dispensible.
> The two cases you mention are not the same. In one you do not need any
> particular kind of matter. In the other, you do not need matter at all.

OK, that is strictly true. Still, it is more elegant to postulate that no 
world exists than that there exists (at least) a single quantum state which 
the entire apparent universe.

The idea that a minimal phsyical situation can "sustain" a universe
work either.

 I realise this is not a knock-down argument.

> > From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
> >
> > "A set of properties A supervenes upon another set B just in case no two things 
can differ with respect to A-properties without also differing with respect to their 
> >
> > From this definition, the mental does not supervene on the physical in 
> > of the cases I mentioned.
> No, that is mistaken. The mental/computational properties supervene
> on the physical properties in any particular realisation.
> Computationalism
> implies that mental properties can be multiply realised, true, but each
> realisation
> obeys supervenience.

The A properties are mental, the B properties physical. Multiple physical 
may implement the same computation, i.e. there is a one: many relationship 
the A properties and the B properties, respectively. This is not controversial, 
it is really
just a restatement of functionalism. However, it is the reverse situation which 
problematic, a many: one relationship between the mental and the physical, 
which you
will note is not consistent with the definition of supervenience given above. 
showed that just such a relationship would seem to hold between physical 
process and
consciousness. Even more simply, it is possible to interpret a single physical 
process as
implementing multiple computations, as I have discussed before.

Only if someone is doing the actual interpetation. But then you don't
ha a minimal physical universe, because the interpreters are really
existing beings too.

So the supervenience
thesis of computationalism seems flawed. If you are still keen on 
computationalism and
are willing to drop the supervenience thesis you end up with Bruno's version of 
If you think computationalism without the physical computers is absurd then 
maybe you
need to drop computationalism.

Maudlin's argument is flawed.

Stathis Papaioannou
Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at

Reply via email to