On Feb 6, 11:20 pm, "Tom Caylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 10:25 pm, Brent Meeker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Tom Caylor wrote:
> > > I'm saying that there is no meaning at all if there is no ultimate
> > > meaning.
> > So you say. I see no reason to believe it.
> > >Again, I haven't just pulled this out of thin air. If you
> > > really read the modern thinkers and writers, that is what they were
> > > saying. Hegel, Kierkegaard, Wittgenstein, Russell, Camus, Sartre,
> > > Dostoyevsky, Orwell, Godel, Monod, Lewis, Schaeffer...
> > I don't think you've read these writers. Russell, Camus, and Sartre were
> > definitely advocates of each person providing their own purpose.
> > Incidentally they hardly qualify as "modern" anymore.
> They each came to the edge of the cliff, but they responded in
> different ways. Some took the "leap of faith" (!) to say that somehow
> providing our own purpose is legitimate. Bertrand Russell said this
> was "incredible", but he believed it anyway. We are in the post-
> modern age now.
> > >I hope that
> > > people who are trying to be on the cutting edge of "theories of
> > > everything" will go back and pick up from where these thinkers left
> > > off. Not just stand on the shoulders of the physics giants, but also
> > > the philosophy (and spiritual!) giants. I know that the modern
> > > philosophy road is depressing and unlivable. They bring us to the
> > > edge of the cliff. It was depressing for people like the young genius
> > > Nick Drake who was found dead on his bed in his 20's after a drug
> > > overdose, with Camus' Myth of Sysiphus beside him. But we have to
> > > face the reality of where the modern age has brought us in order to
> > > find the answer before we all exterminate ourselves. ...taking the
> > > "leap of faith" that it is bad to exterminate ourselves.
> > It's not modern existential angst that threatens our existence. It's the
> > religious zealotry of worshippers of the sky god - in Iran, Pakistan, and
> > the bible belt.
> Solshenitzyn said that the line between good and evil does not run
> between cultures, beliefs, etc. but right down the center of every
> human being. (Don't know if I remembered the quote exactly.)
> > >In light of
> > > modern thought, your argument about the sky god society begs the
> > > question of meaning by assuming that they *shouldn't* "be miserable
> > > and kill each other". This is not a dilemma to pass over lightly. I
> > > believe it is at the heart of the matter for where mankind is at
> > > today, on the brink of something great or terrible. Or is it REALLY
> > > all just meaningless? (What would "REALLY" mean in that case? ;)
> > Not to me it isn't. I'm all for not exterminating ourselves and I've got
> > grandchildren to prove it.
> Congratulations (honestly).
> However, your having grandchildren shows that you BELIEVE IN not
> exterminating ourselves, but it doesn't PROVE that we SHOULD NOT
> exterminate ourselves.
> > > Isn't that what this Everything stuff is (ultimately ;) all about? We
> > > want to solve the modern schizo dilemma of nature vs. grace and bring
> > > about wholeness.
> > Sounds like a problem invented in the Vatican.
> Modern science has attempted to explain away the reality of what man
> is, both the good and the bad. However, explaining it away doesn't
> eliminate it. Thus the dichotomy.
> > >I'm tired of hearing questions about scientifically
> > > *proving* which god is the right one, as if the question is supposed
> > > to show that it isn't worth it to pursue the answers to the *ultimate*
> > > questions. While we're busy trying to scientifically *prove* which
> > > way to go, or show that you can't scientifically prove which way to go
> > > (which has been done already cf above thinkers), we're gonna walk off
> > > the edge of the cliff. And, pardon my presumptuous risking the danger
> > > of a false belief, but "that wouldn't be very nice."
> > Scientists never "prove" anything; they observe, invent theories, collect
> > evidence, test,... Only mathematicians prove things - and then only
> > relative to axioms they assume.
> I agree.
> > Brent Meeker
> > "It does not matter now that in a million years nothing we do now will
> > matter."
> > --- Thomas Nagel
> We might like to believe Nagel, but it isn't true.
That is, it isn't true that in a million years nothing we do now will
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