On 30 Nov 2008, at 11:57, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 10:11:30AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 28 Nov 2008, at 10:46, Russell Standish wrote: >> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:09:01AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> MGA 3 >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> But this reasoning goes through if we make the hole in the film >>>> itself. Reconsider the image on the screen: with a hole in the film >>>> itself, you get a "hole" in the movie, but everything which enters >>>> and >>>> go out of the hole remains the same, for that (unique) range of >>>> activity. The "hole" has trivially the same functionality than the >>>> subgraph functionality whose special behavior was described by the >>>> film. And this is true for any subparts, so we can remove the >>>> entire >>>> film itself. >>>> >>> >>> I don't think this step follows at all. Consciousness may >>> supervene on >>> the stationary unprojected film, >> >> This, I don't understand. And, btw, if that is true, then the >> physical >> supervenience thesis is already wrong. The >> physical supervenience thesis asks that consciousness is associated >> in >> real time and space with the activity of some machine (with MEC). > > I am speaking as someone unconvinced that MGA2 implies an > absurdity. MGA2 implies that the consciousness is supervening on the > stationary film.
? I could agree, but is this not absurd enough, given MEC and the definition of the physical superveneience thesis; > > > BTW - I don't think the film is conscious by virtue of the > counterfactuals issue, but that's a whole different story. And > "Olympization" doesn't work, unless we rule out the multiverse. > >>> >>> Why does the physical supervenience require that all >>> instantiations of >>> a consciousness be dynamic? Surely, it suffices that some are? >> >> >> What do you mean by an instantiation of a dynamical process which is >> not dynamic. Even a block universe describe a dynamical process, or a >> variety of dynamical processes. >> > > A block universe is nondynamic by definition. But looked at another > way, (ie from the inside) it is dynamic. It neatly illustrates why > consciousness can supervene on a stationary film (because it is > stationary when viewed from the inside). OK, but then you clearly change the physical supervenience thesis. > The "film", however does need > to be sufficiently rich, and also needs to handle counterfactuals > (unlike the usual sort of movie we see which has only one plot). OK. Such a film could be said to be a computation. Of course you are not talking about a stationary thing, which, be it physical or immaterial, cannot handle counterfactuals. > > The problem is that eliminating the brain from phenomenal experience > makes that experience even more highly probable than without. This is > the Occam catastrophe I mention in my book. Obviously this contradicts > experience. > > Therefore I conclude that supervenience on a phenomenal physical brain > is necessary for consciousness. It is vague enough so that I can interpret it favorably through MEC. Bruno > I speculate a bit that this may be due > to self-awareness, but don't have a good argument for it. It is the > "elephant in the room" with respect to pure MEC theories. > >> Sorry for being a bit short, I have to go, >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
