On 02 Feb 2009, at 18:20, Brent Meeker wrote:

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> > Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 31 Jan 2009, at 12:47, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Ok then for the particular run I describe, the two programs (the >>> original and the one modified by stub subpart) have the same >>> states... >>> So for this particular run, we should still accept that the stub >>> modified program is conscious while the run is performed (either >>> physicaly or just by the mere existence of it's trace in platonia). >> >> >> It is more complex than that. I have to think more to make a genuine >> comment. >> >> >> >>> Is consciousness supervening on the state/trace of the computation >>> (which makes that there is an infinity of computations "outputing" >>> this trace, and in our case original program and stub program does >>> the >>> same) or on the trace+the relation between states (which would >>> differentiate the two programs, hence by what supervening mean the >>> consciousness generated by them) ? >> >> On the trace+relations, or better on the relations only. But the >> relations are infinitely many too. > > I don't understand the last remark. We're assuming the computation > is performed > by some finite-state machine - right? In which case successive > states are > related by a "successor function" which is a finite set of triples. Consciousness is a *first* person notion. We have abandoned the physical supervenience, and we associate (by UDA and/or comp supervenience) consciousness to *all* computations going through our state, if only for betting the "correct" measure. Each particular computations generated in the universal deployment can indeed be related to a successor function, but, assuming comp, *you* (first person) belong to an infinity of computations. Your consciousness is related to an instinctive bet that there is a universal machine supporting your computations, but your probable next state is determined by an infinity of universal machines and computational histories, in particular, those histories appearing below your substitution level. OK? Cf the seventh step. I do with comp, what some people do with QM, I take it being literally true. It is the only way to discover, perhaps, that the hypothesis is false. Consciousness, personal and less personal, like all the immaterial relations between numbers, is in Platonia. Brains and bodies are relative objects which makes that consciousness able to manifest itself relatively to normal and most probable computational histories. Comp, like QM, is less and less intuitive the more you grasp it: the big picture *is* counter-intuitive. Indeed the whole big picture is just necessarily not graspable. But then the machine can prove that it has to be so once the machine assumes comp and bet on its own soundness. Of course you have to keep distinct this intrinsic non intelligibility and the contradiction you can come to when you forget the difference between third person views and first person views. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---