Russell,

is there a chance I could read your paper referred to below? (Those 'some'
hours passed what you suggested to require for getting it on the internet).
I wonder if you referred to individual ants or a hive - that IMO may be
socially conscious (depending on our def. of conscious).
It all goes into the socialized 'self'  idea - maybe a further
'evolutionary' phase from the contemporary 'human' ideas. Or: vice versa,
when the individual entities combined (symbiotically?) into a 'neuronal
brain'. Either way I cannot condone reasonable thinking based on our present
anthropomorphy (plus 'human terms').

I am not an 'antologist', I missed your paper last year.

Have a good time

John Mikes




On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dr Nick,
> I think part of what the mirror test attempts to establish is that the
> animal recognizes the reflection as itself, therefore showing the animal has
> a sense of itself as an independent actor within an environment as opposed
> to simply an ego-less series of experiences.
>
> If an irritant were used instead of paint and the animal responded, it
> would certainly show the animal was aware of the irritation, but it
> wouldn't necessary prove the animal is aware of itself being an independent
> entity.
>
> I think there are lots of problems with the mirror test, at least insofar
> as it being used as a means of separating self-aware animals from non-self
> aware ones.  I think it can be used to prove self-awareness but not disprove
> it.  For instance, there are many dogs and cats that look at their
> reflection and don't react as if it were another animal, is this evidence
> they recognize their own reflection?
>
> I came up with a modified mirror test, which I call a surprise test.  Have
> an animal set such that it can see itself in a mirror.  Then using a probe
> that is silent, orderless, etc, have it slowly approach from behind (so as
> to be visible in the mirror but not directly) and touch the animal.  If its
> level of surprise is greater than when repeated without the mirror, then one
> might conclude the animal anticipated being poked by the probe as it saw its
> reflection about to be touched.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Dr Nick <m...@dtech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Russell
>> I notice in your book "the theory of nothing that there is a test for self
>> awareness (Gordon Gallup) called the mirror test.  Not many animals are
>> known to have passed this test.  However I wonder whether many more would
>> if
>> the spot painted on them actually was not odourless or indeed was an
>> irritant.  My point is that why should self awareness be measured by a
>> response from signals from the eye to the brain rather than any other of
>> the
>> senses to indicate that the spot is present and therefore prompt the
>> spotted
>> one to look into the mirror to see what's what?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> russell standish-2 wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I have just submitted my "ants are not conscious" argument to a
>> > journal, and to arXiv. If you're interested, the arXiv identifier is
>> > arXiv:0802.4121. Please wait a few hours before trying arXiv, though,
>> > until the paper is made public by the system.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> > Mathematics
>> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052                       hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>> > Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Ants-are-not-conscious-tp15738939p25418478.html
>> Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> >
>

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