Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 01 Feb 2010, at 12:07, w.tay...@math.canterbury.ac.nz wrote (FOR list) :

> The problem with both groups is that both have a tendency to forget
> that both Science and Religion are constructs

They are not. Religion is a construct, science is a method.
Category mistake.



Human religion is a construct of humans.
Human science is a construct of humans.

Machine religion is a construct of machines.
Machine science is a construct of machines.

Science concerns the communicable part of the common truth.
Religion concerns the non communicable part of the common truth.

Both are driven by truth, and both are perverted by any one (or many) pretending to *know* it.

One has to take Bruno's pronouncements on religion with a grain of salt since he assumes an esoteric definition of religion such that rather important phrases, such as, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"  and the writings of  most of those who have studied religion incomprehensible:

"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural
piety, to laws, to reputation;  all of which may be guides
to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but
religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an
absolute monarchy in the minds of men."
   --- Francis Bacon

"The truths of religion are never so well understood
  as by those who have lost the power of reasoning."
      --- Voltaire, 1764

"The religions were believed "by the people, to be all equally
true, by the philosophers, to be all equally false, and by the
magistrates, to be all equally useful"
      --- Edward Gibbon

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral
principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this
day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one
another ..."
        --- Thomas Jefferson

I doubt that Scott Atran, David Sloan Wilson, or Loyal Rue would recognize Bruno's definition.  Discounting mystics and mystical theologians, the other 99.9% of the world takes religion to be not only communicable, but to have been communicated by revelatory books and visions which are not to be questioned.

Brent

We are all divine *hypotheses*, and nobody can know the last word of <what's his name?>.

Concerning the ideal case of the self-referentially correct machine, in the Gödel sense of self-reference, science obeys, at the propositional level, to the modal logic G, and religion to the modal logic G*, as described in Solovay 1976 paper, and exploited in my publications and texts. The proper part of correct machine theology is described by G* minus G, and can be roughly sketched by  truth (in the sense of Tarski)  minus provability (in the sense of Gödel). 

Most of the sentences in this post are of the type G* minus G, and should NOT be communicated, unless the assumption of mechanism is made explicit. So, most of this belong to the type true *about* any correct universal machine, but non provable *by* any correct universal machine.

I can provide technical details on the everything-list if you are interested. Or you can read my Plotinus paper, easily accessible from my url. It shows how the 'physical reality' fits in the number/computer science theoretical panorama.

Religion can be perverted, and in our theorizing we should distinguish religion from any of perverted religions. Basically  science and religion allows infinite set of comments and revisions, and perverted sciences and perverted religions disallows comments and revisions.

Bruno Marchal


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