Le 02-févr.-10, à 22:29, Brent Meeker a écrit :

Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 01 Feb 2010, at 12:07, w.tay...@math.canterbury.ac.nz <mailto:w.tay...@math.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote (FOR list) :

> The problem with both groups is that both have a tendency to forget
> that both Science and Religion are constructs

They are not. Religion is a construct, science is a method.
Category mistake.

Human religion is a construct of humans.
Human science is a construct of humans.

Machine religion is a construct of machines.
Machine science is a construct of machines.

Science concerns the communicable part of the common truth.
Religion concerns the non communicable part of the common truth.

Both are driven by truth, and both are perverted by any one (or many) pretending to *know* it.

One has to take Bruno's pronouncements on religion with a grain of salt since he assumes an esoteric definition of religion

I take the word theology (extended on religion) in the sense of the greek, where theology is a branch of scientific inquiry.

The main reason for doing that is the "modern discovery" that such form of theology reappear in the study of what machine can and cannot prove about themselves.

such that rather important phrases, such as, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" and the writings of most of those who have studied religion incomprehensible:

You know that I consider theology in the sense of those who have define it, and propose theories. I am not using it in the sense of those who have mix it with politics. This is perverted religion, like Lyssenko pseudo marxist genetics was perverted biology.

"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural
piety, to laws, to reputation;  all of which may be guides
to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but
religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an
absolute monarchy in the minds of men."
  --- Francis Bacon

I may understand this sentence with "atheism" replaced by "agnosticism". Modern atheist believes dogmatically in primitive matter, physicalism, etc. They also believe the notion of Christian God is so full of sense that, as John Mikes said once, they can disbelieve in it. Atheism is really just a variant of Christianism. They believe in the same Aristotelian Gods. But many atheist, unlike Carolyn Porco, are no aware that they have a religious belief, and try to make us belief that science is on their side.

"The truths of religion are never so well understood
 as by those who have lost the power of reasoning."
     --- Voltaire, 1764

This makes sense. In everyday life we have to develop irrational belief. All correct universal machine can know that. Since Gödel we know that (ideally) correct machine can discover the gap between truth and provability.

"The religions were believed "by the people, to be all equally
true, by the philosophers, to be all equally false, and by the
magistrates, to be all equally useful"
     --- Edward Gibbon

Meaning the people are open minded (which I doubt in general), the philosophers are studborn and the magistrates are dishonest.
Well, I certainly doubt all this.
But again, it is a confusion between the religion as inquiry and the religion perverted by temporal powers. If we don't come back to serious theological study, we will continue to give power to those who misuse the idea. Atheist are the objective ally of those who misuse theological study.

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral
principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this
day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one
another ..."
       --- Thomas Jefferson

Of course. In some place and period atheist sand christians (and some other) have tortured those who witness skepticism.

I doubt that Scott Atran, David Sloan Wilson, or Loyal Rue would recognize Bruno's definition. Discounting mystics and mystical theologians, the other 99.9% of the world takes religion to be not only communicable, but to have been communicated by revelatory books and visions which are not to be questioned.

But this has been made possible, in Occident, by the closure of Athene's academy, and the lasting persecution of free thinkers and agnostics.

Those who are opposed to authoritative forms of religion (and philosophy, and science) should encourage the coming back of the scientific attitude in theology (and philosophy, and science). By mocking the whole field of theology, they are developing a religion which is as bad as the one they criticize. Even worst, because they pretend not having dogma, but they are unable to doubt the existence of primitive matter, and they are forced, consequentially, to put the mind-body problem under the rug, if not the notion of person. A pity, because that results from a simple error: forgetting that atheism is a religion or philosophy. Science is agnostic and does not commit ontological commitment (other than the referent of the scientific terms used in their *assumptions/theory/hypotheses*.



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