Bruno(and others)
  I am going to do this in two posts. The first is my interpretation
of your UDA. Since the Brain is a Turing emulatable program running on
a biological platform(to start), steps 1-5 are not controversal. Step
6 scan(and annilates) the body and only places the program on another
physical hardware platform, for a finite amount of time. Step 7 is the
usual scan and annihilate, and then looks for the program in the UD
still on some physical platform? Step 8 removes the physical universe
and had the UD "running" in Arithmetical Platonia?
If I basically understand this correctly, then I will interpret UDA
from my(physicla scineces POV).
 
Ronald

On Dec 2, 10:55 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> On 02 Dec 2010, at 15:51, ronaldheld wrote:
>
> > Bruno:
> > I looked at UDA via the SANE paper. I am not certain the the mind is
> > Turing emulatable, but will move onward.
>
> OK. It is better to say brain instead of mind. The doctor proposes an  
> artificial digital brain, and keep silent on what is the mind, just  
> that it will be preserved locally through the running of the adequate  
> computer.
>
> > Using Star Trek transporter
> > concepts, I can accept steps 1 through 5.
>
> Nice. Note that the Star trek transporter usually annihilates the  
> original (like in quantum teleportation), but if I am a "program" (a  
> natural program) then it can be duplicated (cut, copy and paste apply  
> to it).
>
> > Step 6 takes only the mind
>
> (the program, or the digital instantaneous state of a program)
>
> > and sends it to a finite computational device or the entire person
> > into a device similar to a Holodeck,
>
> It is just a computer. A physical embodiment of a (Turing) Universal  
> Machine. Assuming the "mind state" (here and now) can be captured as  
> an instantaneous description of a digital program, nobody can feel the  
> difference between "reality" and its physical digital emulation, at  
> least for a period (which is all what is needed for the probability or  
> credibility measure).
>
> > where the person is a
> > Holocharacter?
>
> A person is what appears when the correct program (which exists by the  
> mechanist assumption) is executed ('runned') in a physical computer.
>
> > I am not certain a UD is physically possible in a
> > finite resource Universe.
>
> You don't need this to get the indeterminacy, non-locality and even  
> the non clonability, unless you add that the resource are finite and  
> enough little (in which case you still have the indeterminacy and non-
> locality in case of self-duplication in that little universe of course).
> After UDA 1-7, you know that if you make a physical experiment, the  
> result that you will perceive depend on the absence of similar state  
> of "your body" in the (physical) universe.
>
> Then, with step 8, you can realize that even that move toward a little  
> physical universe will not help to throw away the 1-indterminacy, non-
> locality and non clonability. The reason is that Arithmetical Platonia  
> becomes the universal "Holodeck", if you want.
> UDA 1-7 shows that the mind (the first person) cannot distinguish a  
> physical reality from a physical emulation of it (for a short time),  
> but after step 8, we can see that the person cannot even feel the  
> difference between a physical emulation and an arithmetical emulation,  
> which exists out of space and time independently of any observers (by  
> Church thesis, arithmetic and computer science). That is subtler than  
> UDA 1-7, but it makes the argument a proof, i.e. a proof that physics  
> just cannot be the fundamental theory, once we assume digital  
> mechanism. The physical laws have a reason, and even a  
> "space" (arithmetical truth) where, from the point of view of the  
> observers, they have been selected.
>
> Thanks for your reply, and ask any supplementary questions if  
> interested. I am trying to work on the official "english" papers.  
> After that I will write a book. I have succeeded in explaining step 8  
> to many different publics now, so that I think I have the whole thing  
> straight.
>
> AUDA, on the contrary, is well understood only by logicians, but  
> physicists have still problem with basic logic. There is a real big  
> gap between logicians and physicists. I was hoping that quantum  
> computations would make a bridge, but that will still take a long  
> time. Anyway, UDA is enough to understand the main point.
> AUDA is cute, because it shows that the intelligent machine are  
> already here. It shows also that intelligence is mainly a right, not a  
> gift (but many people dislike this, and that is hardly astonishing  
> when you look at the history of humanity: it is the sempiternal fear  
> of the others).
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 28, 5:52 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> >> On 27 Nov 2010, at 19:05, ronaldheld wrote:
>
> >>> Jason(and any others)
> >>>   Both. Level IV Universe is hard to explain even if real. Bruno's
> >>> reality is equally hard to convincing present.
> >>>                               Ronald
>
> >> Do you agree/understand that if we are machine then we are in
> >> principle duplicable?  This entails subjective indeterminacy.
> >> All the rest follows from that, and few people have problems to
> >> understand UDA 1-7.
>
> >> UDA-8, which justifies immateriality, is slightly more subtle, but if
> >> you have followed the last conversation on it on the list (with
> >> Jacques Mallah, Stathis, ..) you could understand than to block the
> >> movie graph argument you have to attribute a computational role to  
> >> the
> >> physical activity of something having non physical activity, and I
> >> don't see how we could still accept a digital brain in this case.  
> >> With
> >> just UDA 1-7 you could already understand that most of quantum
> >> weirdness (indeterminacy, non-locality, non-clonability) is a
> >> qualitative almost direct consequence of digital mechanism (even in
> >> presence of a primitively material universe).
>
> >> AUDA, the Löbian interview, is another matter because you need
> >> familiarity with mathematical logic and recursion theory.
>
> >> Tell me please what you don't understand in the first steps of UDA. I
> >> am always interested to have an idea of what is it that people don't
> >> grasp. I am writing some "official" papers now, and that could help.
> >> Up to now the results are more ignored than criticized, or is
> >> considered as crap by religious atheist/materialist, without rational
> >> arguments. Tell me if you have a problem with the subjective (first
> >> person) indeterminacy. Thanks.
>
> >> Bruno
>
> >>> On Nov 26, 12:02 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:50 PM, ronaldheld <ronaldh...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Jason:
> >>>>>  I see what you are saying up at our level of understanding, I do
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> know how to present that in a technically convincing matter.
> >>>>>                                                  Ronald
>
> >>>> Which message in particular do you think is difficult to
> >>>> present convincingly?  Tegmark's ideas that everything is real, or
> >>>> the
> >>>> suggestion that computer simulation might be a legitimate tool for
> >>>> exploration?
>
> >>>> Jason
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Everything List" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
> >>> .
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visit this group 
> >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
> >>> .
>
> >>http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/-Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> > Groups "Everything List" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group 
> > athttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
> > .
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to