On 09 Mar 2011, at 17:49, 1Z wrote:

On Mar 9, 4:30 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

OK. I guess you associate pain to the primitive matter. But that is
even more incoherent with respect to the comp hypothesis.

There is nothing mystical about the falsehood of comp. It
is quite possible for comp to  be false whilst naturalism remains

My point is just that IF comp is true, then naturalism is false. Or if you prefer, that if naturalism is true, then comp is false.
So I certainly agree here.

Computationalism is not per se a theory of qualia.

How can it be a theory of consciousness without being a theory
of qualia?

In that sense all right. Comp is the theory which accept as axiom that my brain/body is Turing emulable at some level. But in that sense, comp is a theory of everything. Indeed, it even makes elementary arithmetic a theory of everything, with both quanta and qualia derivable from digital machine's self-reference.

Yep. Comp is a bad theory of qualia.

As I said, Comp is the assumption that qualia are preserved through
functional substitution at some level. A theory of qualia emerges from
the self-reference logic.

A theory of indescribable something-or-others does

More precisely, a theory of describable and indescribable "oneself" can prove and infer about "oneself".

But then if you abandon comp at this stage, it means I have made my
point. I thought you were defending COMP + MAT(*)

I was pointing out that COMP does not imply not-MAT once
PLATO is dropped. COMP may be a bad theory for other reasons.

COMP makes no sense at all without "Plato" (that is we need to believe that phi_x(y) converges or does not converge. No more is needed for the epistemological reversal. Or show the flaw in UDA, or show where more than such "Plato" is used.

If you have a theory of qualia using primitive matter, and coherent
with comp, then you should be able to use it to extract a flaw in the
UD Argument.

Here's one: minds can be computed,  but they only have
real conscious if they run "on the metal" (at the zeroth
level of abstraction). That's not your version of COMP,
but it is adequate for most AI researchers, and for
anybody who wants to be reincarnated in silicon

Then there is a flaw in UDA+MGA. Where?

(*) For the new people: MAT = weak materialism = the common doctrine
that primitive matter exists, or that matter exists at the basic
ontological level.

We don't know
how to write subroutines for phenomenality.

Assuming comp, it is enough to write the code of a universal machine.
For example RA (Robinson Arithmetic) has qualia, but RA lacks the
cognitive ability to understand the notion of qualia. If you give it
the induction axioms (getting PA), you get a Löbian machine, and it
has the full power to find its own theory of qualia.

Assuming indescribability is a sufficient, and not
just a necessary feature of qualia

That contradicts what you said in the preceding post. But then my task is even more simple, given that machine can access to the indescribability of their qualia.

That artificial people
do not have "real feelings" is a staple of sci fi.

And ?

So the intuitions that underly the HP also
underly the badness of COMP as a theory
of qualia

What is HP?



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