On 9 March 2011 19:43, Brent Meeker <meeke...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Yes, I realize there are kinds of consciousness.  I thought the interesting
> idea in Jaynes was that perceptual consciousness, which I'm sure my dog has,
> was co-opted by evolution to become self-consciousness.  Specifically that
> with the development of language, communication of aural information became
> very important.  The brain evolved to internalize this into an
> inner-narration to realize the advantage of keeping one's thought's to
> oneself (e.g. decpetion).  It would imply that if, for example written
> communication was invented before language, then our brains might implement
> consciousness through an inner text (like those ribbons across the bottom of
> a TV news program) instead of an inner voice.  This is what leads me to
> speculate that there could be completely different modes of internal
> cogitation that we could not easily identify even though the external
> behavior was what we could call "conscious".  The intelligent Mars Rover may
> be an example of this.

Interesting, you've given me something new to think about.

Thanks

David

> On 3/9/2011 9:24 AM, David Nyman wrote:
>>
>> On 9 March 2011 16:21, Brent Meeker<meeke...@dslextreme.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> >  To me that is an open question.  Are philosophical zombies possible?
>>> >  It
>>> >  seems unlikely, but when I consider specific ideas about
>>> > consciousness, such
>>> >  as Julian Jaynes, then it seems more plausible that conscious-like
>>> > behavior
>>> >  could be evinced with such different internal processing that it would
>>> > not
>>> >  realize consciousness as I experience it - though it might still be
>>> >  consciousness in Bruno's sense of being capable of mathematical
>>> >  self-reference.
>>>
>>
>> My reading of Jaynes (and TOOCITBOTBM is one of my favourites) is that
>> by "non-conscious" he actually meant non-self-conscious.  The
>> non-self-conscious person essentially obeys the voices in her head,
>> but when these can no longer provide guidance, internal dialogue - and
>> with it, self-consciousness - may emerge as a superior survival
>> strategy.  However I don't believe Jaynes thought that the bicameral
>> person literally lacked phenomenal experience.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>
> Yes, I realize there are kinds of consciousness.  I thought the interesting
> idea in Jaynes was that perceptual consciousness, which I'm sure my dog has,
> was co-opted by evolution to become self-consciousness.  Specifically that
> with the development of language, communication of aural information became
> very important.  The brain evolved to internalize this into an
> inner-narration to realize the advantage of keeping one's thought's to
> oneself (e.g. decpetion).  It would imply that if, for example written
> communication was invented before language, then our brains might implement
> consciousness through an inner text (like those ribbons across the bottom of
> a TV news program) instead of an inner voice.  This is what leads me to
> speculate that there could be completely different modes of internal
> cogitation that we could not easily identify even though the external
> behavior was what we could call "conscious".  The intelligent Mars Rover may
> be an example of this.
>
> Brent
>
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