Thanks, Brent, - however:
 I did not restrict myself to physics (lest: 'fundamental') and had a
shorthand-typo in my text:
     - - -   (=cause)   - - -
which indeed means:  "a change, effected by - what we call: a cause".
I was referring to our (conventional) system looking only inside the 'model'
of already knowable knowledge, even those applied only "as needed"
to identify cause - or effect.
The unknown 'rest of the world' also influences those changes we may
experience within our model so our consclusions are incomplete.
That does not apply to a universal machine which 'knows it all' - but we
indeed have no idea how it works and what it may conclude.
Deduced in my common sense of agnostic ignorance.

John

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:59 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

>   On 4/6/2011 2:06 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>
> The exchange between SPK and Bruno is hard to personalize, there is am
> unmarked paragraph after a par marked "...
> so I was in doubt whether it is Bruno, or Stephen who wrote:
>
>      *"His use of the word "causation" is unfortunate but we can forgive
>      him because there is no correct word for the relation that he is
>      considering....." *
> **
> Both mathematical and philosophical "causation" is partial: all we can
> consider as instigating a 'change' (= cause?) may only come from the part of
> the totality we already know of and include into that partivular model used
> in our consideration, while the influences of the still unknown factors are
> included (active?) as well (not to mention those known ones we neglected in
> our limited thinking).
> In precise thinking such uncertainty interferes with applying 'correct'
> vocabulary.
>
> John M
>
>
> In fundamental physics where evolution is time-symmetric, the distinction
> between cause and effect is just an arbitrary choice.  In more practical
> terms cause usually refers to some part of a process we could chose to
> control.  If a cable breaks and drops something, we say the accident was
> caused by cable failure - because what we think we could have done to
> prevent the accident is use a better cable.  We don't say gravity caused it
> because we can't turn off gravity.
>
> Brent
>
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