Hi Bruno,

    Thus wisdom is a measure of how much one knows that one does not know. 

Onward!

Stephen

From: Bruno Marchal 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:48 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: 1P-causality
Hi John, 

I indulge myself in a slight correction on a statement, that you were just 
doing for a second time, despite I thought having already insisted on the 
point. I am sorry because it is not completely in the topic:


On 07 Apr 2011, at 17:42, John Mikes wrote:


  Thanks, Brent, - however:
  I did not restrict myself to physics (lest: 'fundamental') and had a 
shorthand-typo in my text: 
       - - -   (=cause)   - - -  
  which indeed means:  "a change, effected by - what we call: a cause". 
  I was referring to our (conventional) system looking only inside the 'model' 
of already knowable knowledge, even those applied only "as needed" to identify 
cause - or effect. 
  The unknown 'rest of the world' also influences those changes we may 
experience within our model so our consclusions are incomplete. 
  That does not apply to a universal machine which 'knows it all' - 


Universal machine knows about nothing. 

They are universal with respect to computability, or emulability, or 
simulability. Not on provability, believability or knowability.  Typically all 
humans being are universal machines. I can argue that bacteria are already 
universal machine. 

The UMs know about nothing, but they can become wise, that is Löbian. This is 
when they realize that they are universal (in some sense which I can make 
precise) in that case, they still know about nothing, but they know that they 
know nothing, and they can know why it is necessary that they know nothing. 
They also know that if they develop knowledge, their ignorance-space will grow 
even more, so that by learning, they can only be proportionnally more ignorant. 
that is why they become extremely modest.

In the arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus hypostases, the universal 
machine is the arithmetical correspondent of man. God is arithmetical truth, 
and for "Him/It/Her" there is a sense to say that He/It/her knows everything, 
but It is far beyond what *any* machine can grasp. Machines cannot even give It 
a name, unless they assume that they are machine, in which case the label 
"Truth" can indirectly be applied.

Universal machine are more like universal baby than omniscient knower. 
With the Church-Turing Thesis, your laptop *is* a universal machine. The 
universal Turing machine is universal. All computer's are. And I can argue that 
all living cells are universal.

Bruno




  but we indeed have no idea how it works and what it may conclude. 
  Deduced in my common sense of agnostic ignorance. 

  John


  On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:59 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

    On 4/6/2011 2:06 PM, John Mikes wrote: 
      The exchange between SPK and Bruno is hard to personalize, there is am 
unmarked paragraph after a par marked "...
      so I was in doubt whether it is Bruno, or Stephen who wrote:

           "His use of the word "causation" is unfortunate but we can forgive
           him because there is no correct word for the relation that he is
           considering....." 

      Both mathematical and philosophical "causation" is partial: all we can 
consider as instigating a 'change' (= cause?) may only come from the part of 
the totality we already know of and include into that partivular model used in 
our consideration, while the influences of the still unknown factors are 
included (active?) as well (not to mention those known ones we neglected in our 
limited thinking). 
      In precise thinking such uncertainty interferes with applying 'correct' 
vocabulary. 

      John M



    In fundamental physics where evolution is time-symmetric, the distinction 
between cause and effect is just an arbitrary choice.  In more practical terms 
cause usually refers to some part of a process we could chose to control.  If a 
cable breaks and drops something, we say the accident was caused by cable 
failure - because what we think we could have done to prevent the accident is 
use a better cable.  We don't say gravity caused it because we can't turn off 
gravity.

    Brent


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