*Brent wrote:*
**
*"I would point out that "indeterminism" can have two different sources.
One is internal, due to the occasional quantum random event that gets
amplified to quasi-classical action.  The other, much more common, is the
unpredictable (but possibly determinisitic) external event that influences
one through perception.  I don't think this affects the above analysis
except to qualify the idea that external indeterminism is justly considered
enslavement*."

An enlightened Hungarian king wrote a royal order in the 13th c. (King
Coloman, the bookworm) "De Strigiis quae non sunt..." i.e. "About the
 sorcerers that do NOT exist..." - yet 1/2 millennium later they still burnt
witches the World over. So is it with the ominous
Fre-Will, and many more atavistically developed meme-stuff. Especially in
the theocratic religion chapters, but conventional science not exempted
either. As much as I like Brent's remark, I point out the (conventional
science) figment of the Physical World and its domains like a 'quantum
random event' - which would make all our 'ordered' world (view) irrelevant
and haphazardously changing, instead of following those 'oganized' physics-
(and other scientific)- rules we 'beleive in" and apply. Even Brent's
"quasi-classical action" is part of our scientific figment. Those "possibly
deterministic" EXTERNAL events are within our 'model' of the so far known
part we carry (in pesonalized adjustment) in our 'mind' - outside that SELF
in our mini-solipsism. Part of our *perceived reality.*

I like* * "*the unpredictable (but possibly determinisitic)*'  distinction
as pointing to the influences upon (our known) topics WITHIN the limited
model of our perceived reality by the 'beyond model' infinite complexity of
the everything. We have no way to learn what that infinite rest of the world
may be, yet it influences the part we got access to so it is deterministic
in our indeterministic - unpredictable  world.
"Enslavement" is a term I would be careful to use in such discussion because
of its historic - societal general meaning. We - in my opinion - are not
slaves in the unlimited everything: we are part of it.Embedded into and
influenced by all of it.

We just do not see beyond our limitations - my agnosticism.

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