Hi,

    Umm, both of those videos are JOKES! I guess we are considering that an 
important facet of self-awareness is self-delusion. 

Onward!

Stephen

From: Bruno Marchal 
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:33 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Cc: fabric-of-real...@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Animal consciousness and self-consciousness (was Re: Self-aware <= 
Consciousness?)

On 06 May 2011, at 18:43, Brent Meeker wrote:    [On the everything list]


  On 5/5/2011 11:18 PM, Russell Standish wrote:

    On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 03:31:50PM -0400, John Mikes wrote:

     

      Russell,



      this is my personal way of thinking in realization of the continual

      epistemic enrichment what earlier authors missed. I do not vouch for

      correctness of my ideas, they are like a level in an advancement I found

      followable in view of the latest epistemic additions in a continuously

      changing world(view).

      Self-awareness is definitely at the level of human complexity.

          

    There is evidence of self-awareness in a handful of other species,

    including most of the great apes, bottlenose dolphins and asian

    elephants. Many of these same species appear capable of developing

    rudimentary language capability.



    I would not be surprised to see a number of other species also show

    evidence of self-awareness in time - including some birds, and maybe

    even some cephalopods. However, I am also equally sure that most

    species are incapable of it - too many species fail the tests we pose

    of them.





    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)

    Principal, High Performance Coders

    Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au

    University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



     

  
http://www.theonion.com/video/scientists-successfully-teach-gorilla-it-will-die,17165/
 


Hard to really conclude from one video, but it is still very interesting. I 
forward it on the FOR list where some people argue that non human animals are 
not conscious. This video illustrates that some non-human mammals might even be 
*self-conscious*, and thus probably "Löbian". 
Next step: we should give some salvia to the gorilla, so that he could begin to 
doubt the "body-picture" argument for their own end, because, in that video, 
the gorilla might just have been brainwashed to take its end for granted, from 
some (third person) pictures. This shows how much self-consciousness can delude 
us and makes us confusing first person views and third person descriptions. Of 
course such an illusion/confusion are reasonable from a darwinian short term 
struggle of life perspective.
The more you have neurons, the more you *can* be deluded, and 'nature" exploits 
that fact.

David Nyman replied:

  On the other hand:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCYGm1vMJ0

Well, yes, this is definitely convincing :)

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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