On 18 May 2011, at 02:46, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/17/2011 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 16 May 2011, at 19:40, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/16/2011 7:13 AM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
I was trying to be sure that I took that involves the
possibility that the OMs are computationally disjoint into
account. This covers your example, I think...
I am wondering how they are "strung together", to use the
analogy of putting beads on a string. My point is that we cannot
appeal to a separate "dimension of time" to act as the sequencer
of the OMs. So how do they get sequenced? How does the
information (if I am allowed that term) of one OM get related to
that of another?
I think they must be strung together by overlapping, since as
computations I don't think they correspond to atomic states of the
digital machine but rather to large sequences of computation (and
in Bruno's theory to equivalence classes of sequences).
It is just that if you believe that your consciousness (first
person experience) is manifested through a digitalisable machine,
you have to distinguish the 1-OMs from the 3-OMs.
Intuitively (cf UDA) and computer science theoretically (cf AUDA).
The other theory that Stathis is explicating takes OM's to be
atomic and discrete.
I think Stathis and me share the same theory (a brain can be
substituted by a (material) digital mechanism). The OMs Stathis is
referring to are the 3-OMs. By digitalness they can be considered
as atomic and discrete. If we start from addition and
multiplication (of non negative integers) as initial universal
base, the 3-OMs are numbers. Now, and here perhaps Stathis might
disagree, a sequence of numbers is only a computation when it is
defined relatively to a universal number, to begin by one self.
The 1-OM arises from the first person indeterminacy. Our actual
consciousness depends on the topology and relative measure on all
"equivalent states" reached by all (universal) numbers.
This is a non trivial structure whose mathematics can be derived
from the self-reference logics + the classical theory of knowledge.
As I try to explain, this gives a conceptual explanation of quanta
and qualia, and, accepting also the classical theory of knowledge
(Timaeus, Theaetetus) a mathematical theory of quanta and qualia.
In that case they would have to be strung together by some
internal reference, one to another.
Stathis has the correct picture, I think. I mean "correct"
relatively to the mechanist assumption. The internal reference is
given by the logic of the self-reference. But pure internal
reference makes no sense, we need both globally and locally refer
to "other" universal number (other that oneself) to make sense of
the notion of computation. But it is the self which "create" the
past and the continuation by maintaining enough self-consistency.
Stathis might just study a bit more the math of computer science,
I don't think that's a viable theory since in order to make them
atomic, they must have only small amounts of information -
Computational states (3-OM) are as atomic as natural numbers. Some
contains HUGE amount of information.
when I have a thought it doesn't necessarily include any memory of
or reference to previous thoughts.
That is how meditation and dissociative drug can help you to remind
the consciousness of the "blanche machine", the consciousness of
the virgin Löbian machine. Memories only differentiate consciousness.
Are you claiming that every thought includes a memory? A memory of
what? The immediately preceding thought?
You lost me. I was pretending the contrary. I was with you on this. It
is *because* a thought (a conscious thought) does not necessarily
include a memory or a reference to previous thoughts that you can
remain conscious when taking a drug which disconnect you from all
Brains only change their probability of manifestation relatively to
probable relative universal numbers. Consciousness is a 'natural'
property of universal numbers relatively to probable others
universal numbers. Those relations define an information
differentiating flux in arithmetical truth.
It is also difficult to see how the empirical experience of time
can be accounted for in this theory.
If you accept mechanism, many times emerges. Many 1-times (feeling
of duration), and 3-times (clock). Their logic is provably given by
the variant of self-reference, which each structured the numbers in
different way. Actually 1-times is given by S4Grz1 and X1*, and 3-
times is given by Z1*, or slight variant if you nuance the theory
of knowledge (this is the toy theology of the ideally correct
If you reject mechanism, tell me what is your theory of mind and
your theory of matter.
You misunderstand. I'm objecting to the idea that a "thought" = "a
single state of a digital computation". It seems to me that
"observer moment", OM, is used equivocally to refer to both as
though they were the same thing.
Yes, I agree. That is a very usual confusion. That is why I suggest
people to always distinguish clearly the 3-OMs (computational states
belonging to 3-describable computations) and the 1-OMs (which are
typically NOT describable, except by reference to a notion of truth,
which is itself not describable). Eventually the 3-OMs are handled by
the self-reference logic G (and G*), and the 1-OMs are described by
the self-reference logic S4Grz1 and X1*. It is the difference between
Bp, Bp & p, and Bp & Dt & p. The additions of "& p", " Dt" and "Dt &
p" change the logical and topological structures bearing on the OMs.
I use the notion of OM because people here use that vocabulary, but it
is a bit misleading. Given that there is 8 hypostases, we should
distinguish the 1-OM, 2-OM, 3-OM, ... 8-OM, and even more due to the
others possible arithmetical nuances entailed by the incompleteness
If my brain or some part thereof were replaced by digital computer
I think its states would be a level far below those of my thoughts
(1_OM?) - just as the computational state of my neurons is below the
level of my consciousness.
You are right. And this is why physics is eventually transformed into
a statistics on (relative) computations. Whatever is below my
substitution level is multiplied into infinities, because no machine
can singularize itself on "one" computation. "We" are spread across
the whole universal dovetailing, or on the whole sigma_1 arithmetical
Those states (are those what you are calling 3-OM?) would contain
far more information than that contained in the conscious part.
Indeed, a "real" physical instantiation of a 3-OM is an infinite
mathematical object (if we are machine).
They would have a much shorter duration than a thought and so a
thought would not be atomic, but would have parts that could overlap
and hence provide the experience of time.
I agree. The "overlap" is what is managed by the modalities
distinguishing the points of views.
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