On 07 Aug 2011, at 17:25, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 07.08.2011 14:14 Bruno Marchal said the following:
On 07 Aug 2011, at 01:24, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:54 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi <use...@rudnyi.ru>
Let us forget for a moment machines and take for example some
other biological creatures, for example even insects. How would
you characterize the behaviour of insects? Is it intelligent or
Yes, I would say that insects have a limited intelligence. Why
not? And I imagine they also have a limited consciousness.
That's my personal feeling too. Recently I have updated the arachnid
an octopus in the Löbian (self-conscious) class of entity.
I came to that possible conclusion by looking at video like this, and
then making some experiment with spider myself:
It is not the move the spider, but its apparent induction that there
is a spider behind the mirror, and its apparent shock discovering
there is none.
Take this with some grain on salt, but in matter of consciousness I
prefer to attribute too much than not enough.
On the other hand you can take some Khepera robots for example
and then to use a mirror as well. It would be an interesting
experiment as well.
The question here what it could mean, "limited consciousness" in the
case of a spider.
Why limited consciousness? For me the big departure is between RA
consciousness and PA consciousness. PA is RA (addition and
multiplication, mainly) + the induction axioms (it become very
*clever*). When I say that I think that jumping spiders are Löbian, I
mean that I think they are as much conscious than us. But they have a
lower memory, lower motivation, they are severely constrained by a
very little brain, which makes them far less "intelligent" (in the
sense of Stathis), but I think they are as conscious as us: they
distinguishes themselves from other creature to which they have a
cognitive empathy. For a long time I thought only the mammals can do
that, then I have enlarged this to the homeotherm animals (which
regulate the temperature of the body and happens to dream), and then I
have enlarged this recently to the octopus and the spiders. In a
sense, our own consciousness might be more limited, because it is full
of sophisticated, futile and less futile, human complexity. The brain
seems to be more a filter of (platonic) consciousness than a
consciousness producer, and bigger brain might filter more than less.
technically this points is still hard to settle out.
Jeffrey Gray foresees a role for consciousness as a general purpose
comparator system for late error detection.
It is a good idea.
This presumably give us an opportunity to reprogram ourselves by
means of conscious experience.
This might be related with the ideal G/G* case. I think that
consciousness brings semantics (model, unprovability) and that it
speeds the machine relatively to its most probable computation/
Spiders on the other hand seem to be hardwired,
So we are. Our software admits much more loops, but the spider might
have the loop more which distinguish them from the insect, which I
think are universal but not Löbian (they have almost the "trivial
unlimited consciousness". They cannot reflect it and thus are almost
non universal sort of "robots", unlike the spiders and cats, they have
not the opportunity to think something like "I should go there". They
can only "go there").
so it is unclear what an advantage conscious experience could give
To better escape from the trap of a predator,
To capture a prey more quickly than another spider,
To mate more efficiently than another spider.
I am not talking about spider in general. I am agnostic. Only about
the jumping spiders.
Consciousness is a key for the moving living systems, to anticipate
the way the decor will move relatively to them. Self-consciousness
accelerates this exponentially. The difference between the spider and
us, is the place in the exponential. Insects might be said Löbian on a
larger non individual scale, like we can't exclude the plants. But
spiders might be like cat and dogs, and primate and humans, always
ameliorating their strategies. Slowly, or less slowly. With the
insects and plants, the amelioration is basically only "darwinian",
Of course I might be deluded on those spiders, but they surprise me a
lot! Some month ago, I would have thought that arachnid were not much
more, cognitively speaking, than insects or worms.
Insect's consciousness is really God's consciousness through a window.
With Löbian entity Gods delegates a bit more of its will.
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