>On Oct 7, 10:28 am, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/10/7 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 6, 10:24 pm, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >> The mind may not be understandable in terms of biochemical events but
> > > >> the observable behaviour of the brain can be.
>
> > > > Yes, the 3-p physical behaviors that can be observed with our
> > > > contemporary instruments can be understood in terms of biochemical
> > > > events, but that doesn't mean that they can be modeled accurately or
> > > > that those models would be able to produce 1-p experience by
> > > > themselves. We can understand the behaviors of an amoeba in terms of
> > > > biochemical events but that doesn't mean we can tell which direction
> > > > it's going to move in.
>
> > > It's also difficult to tell exactly which way a leaf in the wind will
> > > move. The leaf may have qualia:
>
> > Theoretically it may, but I don't think so. If it's connected to the
> > tree it might have qualia, and the individual cells might have qualia,
> > but it seems like once it's detached from the tree, it loses it's high
> > level context.
>
> > >it is something-it-is-like to be a
> > > leaf, and the qualia may differ depending on whether the leaf goes
> > > left or right. As with a brain, the leaf does not break any physical
> > > laws and its behaviour can be completely described in terms of
> > > physical processes, but such a description would leave out an
> > > important part of the picture, the subjectivity. While it may be
> > > correct to say that the leaf moves to the right because it wants to
> > > move to the right, since moving to the right is associated with
> > > right-moving willfulness, this does not mean that the qualia have a
> > > causal effect on its behaviour.
>
> > No because if the wind is also pushing other inanimate objects in the
> > same direction and the leaf never resists that, then we can assume
> > that it has no ability to choose it's direction.
>
> > >A causal effect of the qualia on the
> > > leaf's behaviour would mean that the leaf moves contrary to physical
> > > laws, confounding scientists by moving to the right when the forces on
> > > it suggest it should move to the left. It's similar with the brain: a
> > > direct causal effect of qualia on behaviour would mean that neurons
> > > fire when their physical state would suggest that they not fire.
>
> > You aren't hearing me, so I am going to start counting how many times
> > I answer your false assertion - even though it's probably been at
> > least 5 or 6 times, I'll start the countdown at ten, and at 0, I'm not
> > going to answer this question again from you.
>
> > 10: There is no such thing as a physical state which suggests whether
> > a neuron that can fire (ie, has repolarized, replenished, or otherwise
> > recovered from it's last firing) actually will fire. You can induce it
> > to fire manually, but left to it's own devices, you can't say that a
> > neuron which triggers a voluntary movement is going to fire without
> > knowing when the person whose arm it is decides to move it. You can
> > look at every nerve in my body right now and not know whether I will
> > be standing or sitting in one hour's time. There is no physical law
> > whatsoever that has an opinion one way or the other either way.
>
> That's you who do not understand, because your assertion : "You can
> look at every nerve in my body right now and not know whether I will
> be standing or sitting in one hour's time." simply ignore the *external
> input*.
>
> Without it, you can't, with an accurate mode + external stimuli you can. The
> model **can't** predict external input, if it could that would only means
> the model is not about the brain only but about the brain + the entire
> environment.
>

That's my point. Modeling the brain doesn't let you predict it's
behavior - not just because it lacks the external inputs, but the
internal inputs (which are disqualified under materialist monism). You
don't need a model of the brain or knowledge of external inputs if you
have subjective control. The subject can decide that they will stand
up in an hour, and be able to influence the veracity of that
prediction to a great degree. To get the same degree of accuracy
through physics at best would be the looong way around, plus it would
not have an explanatory power.

Craig

>
>
>
>
>
> > >I'm
> > > sorry that you don't like this,
>
> > It's not that I don't like it, it's just that I see that you are wrong
> > about it yet you want me to treat it as a plausible theisis. The
> > consequences of your view is that we can't tell the difference between
> > a living protozoa and a hairy bubble. It's sophistry. You see a salmon
> > swim upstream, does that not mean they 'move contrary to physical
> > laws'? How does the salmon do that? Is it magic? Salmon cannot exist.
> > Such a thing would confound scientists!
>
> > Life is ordinary on this planet. It uses the laws of physics for it's
> > own purposes which may or may not relate to physical existence. I'm
> > sorry that you don't like that, but in a contest between theory and
> > reality, reality always wins. It doesn't matter if you don't
> > understand it, you have my condolences, but I do understand it and I'm
> > telling you that it is for that reason that I am certain your view is
> > factually  less complete than mine. My view includes your view, but
> > your view ignores mine.
>
> > > but it is what it would mean if the
> > > relationship between qualia and physical activity were bidirectional
> > > rather than the qualia being supervenient.
>
> > If qualia were not bidirectional, you could not read or write.
>
> > Craig
>
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> --
> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

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