On 10/21/2011 4:09 PM, John Mikes wrote:

*Hi Stephen,* *it seems you are closing to 'my alley'. **First: if you don't think of T R U T H (in any absolute sense,meaning it's acceptable 'meaning') how can you abide by a version ofit? - What are the "REALS"? *

Hi John,

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I have yet to find fault in any of your posts! ;-)

`It boils down to a definition of the word "meaning", which I take`

`to include notions of truth value and other properties. Meaningfulness`

`requires a subject to whom that a meaning occurs, otherwise we are`

`emptily debating about "if a tree falls ...." To this end such things as`

`Reals are what is non-contradictorily experienciable by some collection`

`of mutually communicating entities. This might seem to be just a form of`

`"consensus realism" but I define "entities" as "anything that can have`

`its own QM wave-function", so such things as quarks, leptons, paramecia,`

`mice, tigers and trees, humans, planets, galaxies and super-clusters all`

`have a vote in the consensus.`

`I see a similar idea in Hitoshi Kitada's theory of Local Systems`

`and Andrew Soltau's "Interactive Destiny" idea and they agree with me`

`(another just a few people that I have communicated with), so I take`

`this limited validation as a reason not to abandon it for some unknown`

`alternative.`

*I do not consider 'Arithmetic' the one and only ontologicalprimitive: I cannot 'see' ontology at all in a world that changesceaselessly and the 'being' (ontology) turns into 'becoming' (sort ofepistemology?) with changing away at the instant you would realize it"became".*

`As I see it, arithmetic is just another way of systematic coding`

`'differences that make a difference". Ontological question are very very`

`tricky because it is very difficult to avoid letting one's tacit`

`assumptions and unconsidered beliefs to obscure problems. From what I`

`have studied of philosophy so far, I would quibble a little bit with`

`your wording here. A ceaselessly changing world can be seen easily, we`

`are looking at an example of one right now. The trick is that the`

`"ceaseless change" cannot be stochastic, there has to be some form of`

`invariance on that change, otherwise there is no possibility of a`

`realistic notion of observer at all. We can consider Boltzman brains`

`that last for an instant, but unless there are a plurality of such`

`brains that can actually somehow communicate with each other, they are`

`no more than instantaneous solipsists.`

`The way I see it, Being is the sum of the homomorphisms within`

`Becoming. Becoming is fundamental. Ian Thompson has written a book`

`<http://www.generativescience.org/books/pnb/pnb.html> that can be viewed`

`online that discusses some other these ideas (if you want more that H.`

`Bergson and Heraclitus references and my own babbling). There is also`

`the writings of Ronald Swan that was taken from us far too soon....`

`(I'll send you a copy of his paper if you request it.)`

*Idem per idem is not a workable position. You can explain a 'system'only in terms looking at it from a different (outside?) view.**Platonism is such a system. I try a "common sense" platform.*

`Idem per Idem is mere counting at best, so I agree. Counting`

`requires some categorical separation between range and domain of the map`

`and a persistent system to implement the mapping. Platonism does not`

`seem to understand this requirement.`

*I asked Bruno several times how he explains as the abstract 'numbers'(not the markers of quantity, mind you) which makes the fundamentalsof the world. He explained: arithmetically 2 lines (II) and 3 lines(III) making 5 (IIIII) that is indeed viewable **exactly asquantity-markers (of lines or whatever). Of course a zero (no lines)would introduce the SPACE between lines - yet another quantity, sowith the 'abstract' of numbers we got bugged down in measurementtechniques (physics?). *

`I agree 100%. It is as if the basic fact that communicability is`

`completely taken for granted. There seems to be no consideration as to`

`how separate and individual minds can communicate with each other in`

`ideal monist theories. Material monist theories completely fail to`

`account for minds, other than some kind of causal inefficacious`

`illusion. Thus I am led, kicking and screaming, to consider some form of`

`non-monist ontology to underpin science.`

*Logic? a human way of thinking (cf the Zarathustrans in theCohen-Stewart books Collapse of Chaos and The Figment of Reality) withother (undefinable and unlimited) ways available (maybe) in the'infinite complexity' of the world **- IF our term of a 'logic' is realizable in it at all. *

`I see the totality of existence as unlimited and unnameably`

`infinite. We are only ever aware of infinitesimal parts of it, so we`

`agree on this. Logic is just a communicable procedure of relating some`

`set of "something" to some other set of "something". There are even`

`multiple forms of sets and logics, so the plurality of possibility is`

`endless! But there does seem to be a pattern to this madness! It seems`

`as if for every kind of set there is a logic having its own algebra and`

`isomorphic to some topological space. So this 4-ality is just another`

`communicable idea.`

***You know a lot more in math-related terms than I do, so I gave onlythe tips of my icebergs in my thinking. *

`I have spent the last 20 years studying philosophy, physics and`

`mathematics on my own and discussing ideas with many people. I have no`

`one to blame for my strange ideas except myself. ;-) If they make some`

`sense to someone other than me, that is wonderful, as sometimes I do not`

`even understand my own mussing! It is I get possessed. It may just be`

`madness. ;-P`

***Then there is my agnosticism: the belief in the unknown part of theworld that yet influences whatever we think of. We continually learnfurther parts of it, but only to the extent of the capabilities of our(restricted) mental capacity. So whatever we 'know' is partial andinadequate (adjuste, incomplete) into our 'mini-solipsism' of ColinHales. *

`I have a similar belief, I try not to name it because to do so`

`constrains it to be one thing and nothing else! ;-)`

Onward! Stephen

** *Regards* ** *John M* ** ** **On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:07 AM, Stephen P. King<stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:Hi John, I was not thinking of truth in any absolute sense. I'm not even sure what that concept means... I was just considering the definiteness of the so-called truth value that one associates with Boolean logic, as in it has a range {0,1). There are logics where this can vary over the Reals! My question is about "where" does arithmetical truth get coded given that it cannot be defined in arithmetic itself? If we consider Arithmetic to be the one and only ontological primitive, it seems to me that we lose the ability to define the very meaningfulness of arithmetic! This is a very different thing than coding one arithmetic statement in another, as we have with Goedel numbering. What I am pointing out is that if we are beign consisstent we have to drop the presumption of an entity to whom a problem is defined, i.e. valuated. This is the problem that I have with all forms of Platonism, they assume something that they disallow: an entity to whom meaning is definite. What distinguishes the Forms from each other at the level of the Forms? Onward! Stephen On 10/20/2011 10:18 PM, John Mikes wrote:Dear Stephen, as long as we are not omniscient (good condition for impossibillity) there is no TRUTH. As Bruno formulates his reply: there is something like "mathematical truth" - but did you ask for such specififc definition? Now - about mathematical truth? new funamental inventions in math (even maybe in arithmetics Bruno?) may alter the ideas that were considered as mathematical truth before those inventions. Example: the zero etc. It always depends on the context one looks at the problem FROM and draws conclusion INTO. John M On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: Hi, I ran across the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_indefinability_theorem *"Tarski's undefinability theorem*, stated and proved by Alfred Tarski <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Tarski> in 1936, is an important limitative result in mathematical logic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic>, the foundations of mathematics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics>, and in formal semantics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics>. Informally, the theorem states that /arithmetical truth cannot be defined in arithmetic/." Where then is it defined? Onward! Stephen--

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