Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
>> You picture consciousness as something inherently personal. But you can
>> be
>> conscious without there being any sense of personhood, or any experience
>> related to a particular person (like in meditation). So that assumption
>> doesn't seems to be true.
>>  Also you think that memory has to be conserved in order for the
>> experience
>> to continue consistently. This is also not true, we can experience things
>> that are totally disconnected from all memories we have, yet still it is
>> the
>> I (not the "I") that experiences it. For example on a drug trip, you can
>> literally forget every trace of what your life was like, in terms of any
>> concretely retrievable memory (you can even forget you are human or an
>> animal). So why can't we lose any *concrete* memory after death and
>> experience still continues consistently (and if it does you have to
>> surive
>> in some way - it makes no sense to have a continuous experience while you
>> totally die).
>> You also don't remember being an infant (probably), yet you were that
>> infant
>> and are still here.
>> Saying that we are the sum of our memory is very simplistic and just
>> isn't
>> true in terms of how we experience (you remember almost nothing of what
>> you
>> have experienced).
>> So if you say it is death, you only refer to a superficial aspect of the
>> person, namely their body and explicit memory. Sure, we tend to indentify
>> with that, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something much more
>> important. The particular person may just be an expression of something
>> deeper, which is conserved, and is the real essence of the person, and
>> really all beings: Their ability to consciously, consistently experience.
>> We tend to find that scary, as it makes us part of something so much
>> greater
>> that all our attachments, possesions, achievements, memory, beliefs and
>> security are hardly worth anything at all, in the big picture. But if
>> they
>> aren't, what are we then? Since most of us have not yet looked deeper
>> into
>> ourselves than these things, we feel immensly treatened by the idea that
>> this is not at all what is important about us. It (apparently) reduces us
>> to
>> nothing.
>> But isn't it, when we face it from a more open perspective, tremendously
>> liberating and exciting? By confronting that, we can free us from all
>> these
>> superficial baggage like things and relations and identity (freeing
>> mentally
>> speaking, of course), and see the true greatness of what we are which is
>> beyond all of this. And this is immortal, with death merely being a
>> relative
>> end, just like sleeping.
>> benjayk
> Well if immortality is something which do not preseve the person... then
> it
> is death.
For the person. The point is that if I don't consider the person to be what
is most important about me, than I don't die at all. Immortality may be
immortality of I (consciousness), not immortality of "I" (personality).
It is death for some aspect, but just as you don't call it death when some
cells of you die, there is no need to consider it death when the person you
consider to be right now dies. It is just material death, but not death of
what you really are. This can't die, as is not even subject to time (even
though it can utilize time).

Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
>  If not, what is the difference between your consciousness and
> mine or any other...
There is no difference, as there is no your and mine consciousness.
Consciousness can not be owned, and can not be divided into pieces. There is
just consciousness.
It is very easily experientally confirmable: Do you ever experience anything
other than this consciousness? Can you ever find an owner of consciousness,
which is not just another appearance in consciousness? No, so why would we
assume that another consciousess or an owner of consciousness exists? We
can't infer that other "consciousnesses" exist by observation of other
people, because we can only infer that other people exist, not that they
have another consciousness. There is no evidence for this at all.

We can speak of your consciousness and my consciousness on a relative level,
meaning one particular expression of consciousness and another particular
expression. But this is a relative distinction, and there are contexts where
this distinction makes little or no sense, like when we die or when we are
in objectless and perceptionless meditation.

Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
>  what is *preserved* ?
Continuity of consciousness.

Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
> Immortality still means what it means, what you're talking about is not
> immortality. If nothing is preserved (no memories) then nothing is left
> and
> I don't care.
But is is not true that nothing is preserved. I already gave an example that
even without explicit memory something more essential than memory can be
If you don't care, you are just being superficial with regards to what you

Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
> When you take drug and "forget"... you then remember when the effects
> stop,
> proving you still have your memory.
That's beside the point. What's important is that we can experience total
memory loss, while still being there. Why would it be important whether you
later concretely remember something or not? That seem irrelevant to the
continuity of experience.

Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote:
> A person who would forget everything... it's the same thing as she had
> died.
Only for an external person. For the subject, it may rather feel like just
being born.
Yes, it is true that all of which superficially makes the person this person
vanishes, but there is no need to reduce the subject to the superficial
expression of a particular personality. You take for granted that the way we
think about ourselves is true to what we really are.

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