Kim,
I join Brent's reasonable reply with "some more".

My opinion about 'LAWS' (in legal sense) is a societal compromise within
the happenings of a cultural setup. Physical "laws"
are observations of happenings explained within the 'latest' knowledge-base
we got. They change as we learn. There is a sub:
are those observations extended to ALL of nature, or the 'majority only?
(Mostly expressed as valid under ALL circumstances).
We really don't know how nature (universe?) works, observe some aspects and
derive (rather than 'divine(?)') <physical> LAWS.
They were different before electricity, before gravitation, before - you
name it - was invented/discovered.
Whether we CAN observe "laws" in a (strange) universe or not does not have
any impact on its existence.
To Brent's #1: Thanks, Brent, would you suggest that the chimps have a
certain chimparithmetic to formulate their laws <G>?
To #2: I would not be so benevolent and you also referred to (human)
ancient law-ideas that were different from later ones.
To#3: I find the 'non sequitur' valid for the "Nothing is possible" part:
we are not omniscient.

We may face "empty set" parts (like MY singularity I described lately) from
which our knowledge doesnot disclose anything.

John M



On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:25 AM, Kim Jones <kimjo...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Is it possible to have a universe with no laws, including the laws of
> physics? Is not having any laws of physics possible? What could happen
> within such a universe? It seems at least a logical possibility (to me).
>
>
>
> Wouldn't this be equivalent to saying either:
>
>
> 1. The laws of physics can't be divined or derived in those universes for
> some reason so we only think there no laws
>
> 2. The laws of physics change continually in those universes so we can't
> measure them
>
> 3. Nothing is possible at all in those universes, but the universes
> nevertheless exist in some sense.
>
> Is this just an empty set or is there more to it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kim Jones
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net to everything-list
show details Nov 12 (2 days ago)
On 11/11/2011 9:25 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
Is it possible to have a universe with no laws, including the laws of
physics? Is not having any laws of physics possible? What could happen
within such a universe? It seems at least a logical possibility (to me).

Wouldn't this be equivalent to saying either:

1. The laws of physics can't be divined or derived in those universes for
some reason so we only think there no laws
If we can think and have language and mathematics in which to express laws
then it seems we will invent laws.  I would even speculate that chimpanzees
invent laws, like "Day will follow night" and "Leopards hunt at night".
Maybe they don't have the scope and precision of we associate with laws of
physics -- but the laws of physics we invented weren't always to great
either.


2. The laws of physics change continually in those universes so we can't
measure them
No, that would just mean we have found the rule describing how they
change.  To be a "law of physics" means it has to apply at all times and
places, directions, states of motion, etc.


3. Nothing is possible at all in those universes, but the universes
nevertheless exist in some sense.
That seems like a non-sequitur to me.
Brent
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