On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:44 PM, benjayk <benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com>wrote:

> Jason Resch-2 wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:17 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/23/2011 4:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
> >>
> >>> The simulation argument:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.simulation-**argument.com/simulation.html<
> http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html>
> >>>
> >>> If any civilization in this universe or others has reached the point
> >>> where they choose to explore consciousness (rather than or in addition
> >>> to
> >>> exploring their environment) then there are super-intelligences which
> >>> may
> >>> chooses to see what it is like to be you, or any other human, or any
> >>> other
> >>> species.  After they generate this experience, they may integrate its
> >>> memories into the larger super-mind, and therefore there are
> >>> continuations
> >>> where you "become one with god".  Alternate post-singularity
> >>> civilizations
> >>> may maintain individuality, in which case, any one person choosing to
> >>> experience another being's life will after experiencing that life
> >>> "awaken"
> >>> to find themselves in a type of heaven or nirvana offering unlimited
> >>> freedom, from which they can come back to earth or other physical
> worlds
> >>> as
> >>> they choose (via simulation).
> >>>
> >>> Therefore, even for those that don't survive to see the human race
> >>> become
> >>> a trans-humanist, omega-point civilization, and for those that don't
> >>> upload
> >>> their brain, there remain paths to these other realities.   I think
> this
> >>> can address the eternal aging implied by many-worlds: eventually, the
> >>> probability that you survive by other means, e.g., waking up as a being
> >>> in
> >>> a post-singularity existence, exceeds the probability of continued
> >>> survival
> >>> through certain paths in the wave function.
> >>>
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>
> >> Why stop there.  Carrying the argument to it's natural conclusion the
> >> above has already happened (infinitely many) times and we are now all in
> >> the simulation of the super-intelligent beings who long ago discovered
> >> that
> >> nirvana is too boring.
> >>
> >> Brent
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Brent,
> >
> > I agree.  About 10% of all humans who have ever lived are alive today.
> >  With a silicon-based brain, we could experience things about 1,000,000
> > times the rate our biological brains do.  If the humans that uploaded
> > themselves spend just 1 day (real time) experiencing other human lives
> > that
> > is equivalent to 40 human lifetimes worth of experience, and thus 80% of
> > all human lives experienced would be simulated ones. (After that 1 day)
> >  This is after just one day, but such a civilization could thrive in this
> > universe for trillions of years.
> >
> Isn't uploading somewhat superflous if we are already simulated?

If everyone were to think like that, then nothing would be simulated.  It
is like deciding not to put on a seat belt when you go in a car because you
believe in other branches you won't get in an accident in the first place.
 The decisions we make affect the relative proportions and frequencies of

> It seems this whole argument more plausibly means that there is no
> simulation needed in the first place (it already there anyway). It seems
> that ultimately we all will inveitably get lost in our simulations and all
> the others that we could be a part of (how would we avoid this?), so no one
> knows anymore what is simulated and what not, and who simulates and who is
> simluating (and how it is simulated), what is past and what is future, who
> is who, etc... So ultimately, there are not really concrete simulations
> going on at all, since there are so intermingled with each other and with
> "reality" that we can't distinguish different simulations and simulations
> from reality (in an absolute way).

I mostly agree with the above.  Reality and paths through it are very
complex, and what is simulated vs. what isn't may be impossible to

> Everything occurs that subjectively can occur. Subjectivity orders the
> space
> of infinite possibilities, and learns to navigate it (creating a subjective
> future). "Normal", material reality is just the ordering mechanism to avoid
> getting lost over and over again in "simulation-like" or "dreamy"
> realities.
> So we may just feel to be biological beings because this experience is
> subjectively consistent, not because any objective progress is lacking. We
> could already be a part of a infinite progressed simulation, we are just
> lost in it. We wouldn't know how to navigate the infinite possiblilities
> without biological bodies, that's why we have them. Look at how lost we get
> in the internet, and that's just things on a screen! Material existence and
> biological bodies (together with their restrictions) help us to order the
> possibilities in a very coherent (but sometimes very painful and annoying)
> way.
> We may already be in that "virtual" space in our dreams, we just can't stay
> there very long and harness it to a great extent, because we have no clue
> what to do with it - it is just too confusing.
> It is obviously extremely challening to navigate the space of all
> possibilities, especially considering an infinite amount of agents are
> doing
> the same. The only way is to let go of self-centered goals and learn to go
> with the flow of self-organizing intelligence.
> So according to this argument, we will never upload ourselves, because we
> already "did", or rather we are already part of an infinite network of
> possibilities. If we upload ourselves, we would go "fully" virtual "again",
> with no benifit whatsoever, so this possbility won't subjectively occur,
> except in dreams maybe.
> Instead, more plausibly our material reality will lose its restrictions, as
> we see we are not really fundamentally restricted to material existence (or
> we are "already simulated"), we just have to use it as of now because we
> can't navigate more fluid realities well enough. But we can learn it
> (primarily by becoming more conscious), and then there is no need for
> uploading anymore.
> Slowly we may realize we are already part of an infinite "hyperinternet".
> My
> thesis is we (=material beings) are the most important agents in this,
> because our (collective!) reality is as material and consistent as it can
> get, and therefore is the best one to form stable networks in (and to
> create
> a unified consistent timeline). It may serve as a hub, and as a place to
> download experience from the less stable realities.

It will be interesting when technology to record and play back dreams is
more developed.


> We just have to get to a point where we are able to cope with strange
> happenings and overlapping realities and use the extended possibilities
> responsibly, which is largly not yet the case. Most people get profoundly
> confused by that. Until we are more ready to face that, a natural mechanism
> of self-consistency will (largly) shut of us from the rest of the "dreamy"
> hyperinternet, making our universe seem barren and our material reality
> limited. I think a big jump will occur if we collectively are open to such
> things (meaning no dogmatic materialism and religion), and not start to be
> superstitous and esoteric because of the events, and not be fearful, and be
> skeptic concerning the reality of the events and of the informations
> gathered, and most importantly, beginning to universally treat each other
> nicely (imagine the horror of criminals being able to read thoughts or
> teleport into your home, or have psychic weapons) and be aware that we are
> all in this together, as one. Then we are finally ready to truly join the
> infinite cosmic ride.
> benjayk
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/The-consciousness-singularity-tp32803353p32875565.html
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