On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:44 PM, benjayk <benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com>wrote:
> > > Jason Resch-2 wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:17 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >> On 11/23/2011 4:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> > >>> The simulation argument: > >>> > >>> http://www.simulation-**argument.com/simulation.html< > http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html> > >>> > >>> If any civilization in this universe or others has reached the point > >>> where they choose to explore consciousness (rather than or in addition > >>> to > >>> exploring their environment) then there are super-intelligences which > >>> may > >>> chooses to see what it is like to be you, or any other human, or any > >>> other > >>> species. After they generate this experience, they may integrate its > >>> memories into the larger super-mind, and therefore there are > >>> continuations > >>> where you "become one with god". Alternate post-singularity > >>> civilizations > >>> may maintain individuality, in which case, any one person choosing to > >>> experience another being's life will after experiencing that life > >>> "awaken" > >>> to find themselves in a type of heaven or nirvana offering unlimited > >>> freedom, from which they can come back to earth or other physical > worlds > >>> as > >>> they choose (via simulation). > >>> > >>> Therefore, even for those that don't survive to see the human race > >>> become > >>> a trans-humanist, omega-point civilization, and for those that don't > >>> upload > >>> their brain, there remain paths to these other realities. I think > this > >>> can address the eternal aging implied by many-worlds: eventually, the > >>> probability that you survive by other means, e.g., waking up as a being > >>> in > >>> a post-singularity existence, exceeds the probability of continued > >>> survival > >>> through certain paths in the wave function. > >>> > >>> Jason > >>> > >> > >> Why stop there. Carrying the argument to it's natural conclusion the > >> above has already happened (infinitely many) times and we are now all in > >> the simulation of the super-intelligent beings who long ago discovered > >> that > >> nirvana is too boring. > >> > >> Brent > >> > >> > >> > > Brent, > > > > I agree. About 10% of all humans who have ever lived are alive today. > > With a silicon-based brain, we could experience things about 1,000,000 > > times the rate our biological brains do. If the humans that uploaded > > themselves spend just 1 day (real time) experiencing other human lives > > that > > is equivalent to 40 human lifetimes worth of experience, and thus 80% of > > all human lives experienced would be simulated ones. (After that 1 day) > > This is after just one day, but such a civilization could thrive in this > > universe for trillions of years. > > > Isn't uploading somewhat superflous if we are already simulated? > If everyone were to think like that, then nothing would be simulated. It is like deciding not to put on a seat belt when you go in a car because you believe in other branches you won't get in an accident in the first place. The decisions we make affect the relative proportions and frequencies of events. > It seems this whole argument more plausibly means that there is no > simulation needed in the first place (it already there anyway). It seems > that ultimately we all will inveitably get lost in our simulations and all > the others that we could be a part of (how would we avoid this?), so no one > knows anymore what is simulated and what not, and who simulates and who is > simluating (and how it is simulated), what is past and what is future, who > is who, etc... So ultimately, there are not really concrete simulations > going on at all, since there are so intermingled with each other and with > "reality" that we can't distinguish different simulations and simulations > from reality (in an absolute way). > I mostly agree with the above. Reality and paths through it are very complex, and what is simulated vs. what isn't may be impossible to distinguish. > Everything occurs that subjectively can occur. Subjectivity orders the > space > of infinite possibilities, and learns to navigate it (creating a subjective > future). "Normal", material reality is just the ordering mechanism to avoid > getting lost over and over again in "simulation-like" or "dreamy" > realities. > > So we may just feel to be biological beings because this experience is > subjectively consistent, not because any objective progress is lacking. We > could already be a part of a infinite progressed simulation, we are just > lost in it. We wouldn't know how to navigate the infinite possiblilities > without biological bodies, that's why we have them. Look at how lost we get > in the internet, and that's just things on a screen! Material existence and > biological bodies (together with their restrictions) help us to order the > possibilities in a very coherent (but sometimes very painful and annoying) > way. > We may already be in that "virtual" space in our dreams, we just can't stay > there very long and harness it to a great extent, because we have no clue > what to do with it - it is just too confusing. > It is obviously extremely challening to navigate the space of all > possibilities, especially considering an infinite amount of agents are > doing > the same. The only way is to let go of self-centered goals and learn to go > with the flow of self-organizing intelligence. > > So according to this argument, we will never upload ourselves, because we > already "did", or rather we are already part of an infinite network of > possibilities. If we upload ourselves, we would go "fully" virtual "again", > with no benifit whatsoever, so this possbility won't subjectively occur, > except in dreams maybe. > Instead, more plausibly our material reality will lose its restrictions, as > we see we are not really fundamentally restricted to material existence (or > we are "already simulated"), we just have to use it as of now because we > can't navigate more fluid realities well enough. But we can learn it > (primarily by becoming more conscious), and then there is no need for > uploading anymore. > Slowly we may realize we are already part of an infinite "hyperinternet". > My > thesis is we (=material beings) are the most important agents in this, > because our (collective!) reality is as material and consistent as it can > get, and therefore is the best one to form stable networks in (and to > create > a unified consistent timeline). It may serve as a hub, and as a place to > download experience from the less stable realities. > It will be interesting when technology to record and play back dreams is more developed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MElU0UW0V3Q > We just have to get to a point where we are able to cope with strange > happenings and overlapping realities and use the extended possibilities > responsibly, which is largly not yet the case. Most people get profoundly > confused by that. Until we are more ready to face that, a natural mechanism > of self-consistency will (largly) shut of us from the rest of the "dreamy" > hyperinternet, making our universe seem barren and our material reality > limited. I think a big jump will occur if we collectively are open to such > things (meaning no dogmatic materialism and religion), and not start to be > superstitous and esoteric because of the events, and not be fearful, and be > skeptic concerning the reality of the events and of the informations > gathered, and most importantly, beginning to universally treat each other > nicely (imagine the horror of criminals being able to read thoughts or > teleport into your home, or have psychic weapons) and be aware that we are > all in this together, as one. Then we are finally ready to truly join the > infinite cosmic ride. > > benjayk > -- > View this message in context: > http://old.nabble.com/The-consciousness-singularity-tp32803353p32875565.html > Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.