Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >> since an uploaded digital mind could also >> be part of a lot of dreamy realities > > It is a part of a lot of "dreamy realities", without any uploading. By > definition of the body and of the digital level of substitution, if we > upload ourself in a computer, we conserve the same relative proportion > of the "dreamy realities". Yes, if a correct substitution level exists. My point is that it in the general case no digital substitution level can exists, because of a self-referential loop between the substitution and the environment / between the computation and the instantiation of the computation (see below for a more detailed argument).
Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Our brain avoids that by being a structure with a quite unique >> instantiation, > > Current physics makes this very doubtful. Assuming QM, there is only > quantum clouds of brains. Unless you presuppose the old copenhagen QM, > which does not make sense to me. I don't mean unique in a physical way, but in a subjective way. It is subjectively easier to see the difference between brains, but harder to see the difference between computers (that may be physically equal, but running different code). The uniqueness of the brain is its uniqueness of subjective instantiation. Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> and a quite clear subjective dividing barrier to virtual >> realities (I am not a/ in a computer). > > How do you know that? I can't know that, indeed I suspect that even just my local personal self is to some extent distributed among all computations. I only say that I do not have a perspective of being a computer. When I look at myself, I see (in the center of my attention) a biological being, not a computer. Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> It's harder to dinstinguish >> yourself from other simulated selfes than from other biological >> selves, >> because of the natural biological barriers that we have, that >> computers >> lack. > > Ah? I can see that I am physically/biologically seperate from you, while we could be both simulated on one computer, without any clear physical dividing barrier. Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> We can only say YES if we assume there is no self-referential loop >> between >> my instantiation and my environment (my instantiation influences >> what world >> I am in, the world I am in influences my instantiation, etc...). > > Why? Such loops obviously exist (statistically), and the relative > proportion statistics remains unchanged, when doing the substitution > at the right level. If such loop plays a role in consciousness, you > have to enlarge the digital "generalized" brain. Or comp is wrong, > 'course. I think it is self-refuting if we not already take the conclusion for granted (saying YES only based on the faith we are already purely digital). Imagine substituting our whole generalized brain (let's say the milky way). Then you cannot have access to the fact that the whole milky way was substituted, because otherwise the whole milky way would have to appear to be a computer running a simulation of the milky way, making our experience drastically different (which is not possible, given that our experience should remain invariant). But if we don't have access to the fact/the way that we are being substituted, it makes no sense to say YES, because we can't even say whether are being substituted. If a substitution is not taking place subjectively, the question of saying YES becomes meaningless (making COMP meaningless). The only way we could know we are being substituted is if there is something other than the milky way to communicate with (which can see we are being substituted). But then we have no reason to suspect that this other will remain invariant, because from its perspective we have shifted from being the milky way to being a computer running a simulation of a milky way, which is such a big difference that it will inevitably totally change its response (to the point of not being the same other / the same relative world anymore - a a totally different interaction s taking place). Or we just *believe* we are being substituted (for whatever reason) and say YES to that, without any evidence we actually are being substituted, but then we are not saying YES to an actual substitution but to the conclusion (I am just a digital machine that is already equal to the substitution). Either way, our experience doesn't remain invariant, or we have no way to state we are being substituted (making COMP meaningless). How is that not a reductio ad absurdum? The only situtation where COMP may be reasonable is if the substitute is very similar in a way beyond computational similarity - which we can already confirm due to digital implants working. This would make COMP work in a quite special case scenario, but wrong in general. Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> OK, we could say YES based on the faith that subjective self- >> reference will >> develop a world for the digital brain that is similar to the old world >> (though that seems very unlikely to me), but this is not YES qua >> computatio. > > That is exactly the YES qua computatio. You let the artificial machine > handling the 3-person self-reference (at the hopefully right level), > and you bet you are still confronted with the local "persistant true > illusion". This is impossible since 3-person self-reference behaves differently that 1-person self-reference. The computations may remain invariant (and thus 3-p self-reference), but the implementation is not, and we can't avoid 1-p reference to the implementation. If I am substituted with a digital brain, the computations at first may be the same, but I can see that the implementation has changed (if only indirectly through my environment), making the computation different again. An attempt of substitution leads to an infinite regress of self-reference. I substitute myself at the right level, but then my implementation has changed and I can see that, which necessarily changes the computations that are going on. Then we have to change the substitution again (or take the change of computations into account in the begining) if I see I am being substituted. But this also has to be taken in to account... This infinite regress could only terminate if at some point I can't know I am being substituted, in which case there is no way to say YES to a substitution (except as an exclamation of faith in the conclusion of COMP). This means that according to COMPs assumption (YES) it can't terminate at a finite number of steps, so we can't have a finite substitution level. But we would need that in order to say YES. In any case, COMP is false in the general case. COMP only works relatively if subjective self-reference *happens* to arrive at a similar state of consciousness. But this is not (purely) due to the computations that are going on. It is due to subjective self-referential correctness. benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/The-consciousness-singularity-tp32803353p32877443.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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