On 12/8/2011 10:18 AM, Pzomby wrote:

On Dec 7, 10:31 am, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:On 12/7/2011 8:14 AM, benjayk wrote:## Advertising

Most materialist just say: Well, the natural laws are just there, without any particular reason or meaning behind them, we have to take them for granted. But this is almost as unconvincing as saying "A creator God is just there, we have to take him for granted". It makes no sense (it would be a totally absurd universe), and there also is no evidence that natural laws are primary (we don't find laws to describe the Big Bang and very plausibly, there are none because it is a mathematical singularity).You are attributing a naive concept of physical laws to "we". Physical laws are models we make up to explain and predict the world. That's why they change when we get new information. Mathematical singularities are in the mathematics. Nobody supposes they are in the world. BrentBrent You state: “Physical laws are models we make up to explain and predict the world.” Are properties of mathematics then dual, being both representational (models) and encoded (rules) as instantiated brain functions?

`Mathematics is a subset of language in which propositions are related by rules of`

`inference that preserve "truth". We can use it to talk about all kinds of things, both`

`real and fictional. We try to create mathematical models where possible because then we`

`have the rules of inference to make predictions that are precise. Where our models are`

`not mathematical, e.g. in politics or psychology, it's never clear exactly what the model`

`predicts.`

`I think the rules of inference are encoded in our brains. See William S. Coopers book`

`"The Evolution of Reason".`

In other words could the singularity in mathematics you refer to be further divided?

`The singularity I was referring to is the hypersurface of infinite energy density and`

`curvature which general relativity predicts at the center of a black hole and the Big`

`Bang. It is in the mathematical model - which only shows that the model doesn't apply at`

`these extreme conditions. This was not a surprise to anyone, since it was already known`

`that general relativity isn't compatible with quantum mechanics and is expected to`

`breakdown at extremely high energies and short distances.`

Brent

Thanks

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